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+--- Thread: Intel NUC - Haswell (4th Generation CPU) (/showthread.php?tid=176718)
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RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - voip-ninja - 2013-11-15
(2013-11-15, 16:59)TurtlesLike Wrote: I got my i3 NUC yesterday and installed Linux Mint 15 and XBMC on it. When playing movies I noticed that the blacks are a bit more gray than they usually are. I've read the last few pages in this thread and I understand that I'm not the only one with this problem but I don't understand what's causing it. Is there something wrong with the hardware or is it the combination of hardware and Linux?
It is almost definitely a driver problem.... 2nd runner up would be some kind of option/config option of the driver so that the hardware is not being driven properly.
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - merlinn31 - 2013-11-15
(2013-11-15, 16:08)Selene Wrote: If you're not opposed to running windows... it just... works, I thought I'd report.
Which version of Windows? What's the minimum disk space?
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - TurtlesLike - 2013-11-15
Quote:It is almost definitely a driver problem.... 2nd runner up would be some kind of option/config option of the driver so that the hardware is not being driven properly.
Ok, thanks. I got a bit worried that there was something wrong with my new expensive toy. But I don't feel like buying another Windows license. What to do? Just wait and see what happens?
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - voip-ninja - 2013-11-15
(2013-11-15, 17:59)TurtlesLike Wrote:Quote:It is almost definitely a driver problem.... 2nd runner up would be some kind of option/config option of the driver so that the hardware is not being driven properly.
Ok, thanks. I got a bit worried that there was something wrong with my new expensive toy. But I don't feel like buying another Windows license. What to do? Just wait and see what happens?
You are experiencing the pain of being an early adopter. I am hopeful that this will get figured out in the coming weeks and if we are really lucky then the fixes will make their way into OE before or at the time that Gotham is released.
I have an HTPC that works, so I will just hold off on a new NUC until this gets fixed. I've been burned on this crap before.
I also have zero desire to deal with an HTPC running MS crap OS software again.
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - lmyllari - 2013-11-15
(2013-11-15, 10:02)Crssi Wrote:I think you missed the point. I too have a calibrated video monitor and want accurate greyscale with no banding (untouched 16-235 luminance) - not something "almost right" by messing with contrast, brightness and gamma (and possibly papering over the errors with dithering).(2013-11-15, 09:39)lmyllari Wrote: Using full range video output from Ubuntu, monitor set to limited range RGB and playing video with mplayer2, everything seems to be in order. Levels are correct, BtB and WtW are there, no banding in greyscale ramp. No oddities in resolution tests either, although I haven't looked for chroma issues yet. I also checked static RGB images with same results.
My command line:
~/src/mplayer2-build/mplayer/mplayer --colormatrix-output-range=limited -vo gl -fs
I will next try the VA-API enabled mplayer (if I can make it build) to verify that hw decoding works properly. Maybe the issues are with XBMC YUV-RGB converter.
See: http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=140534&pid=1418235#pid1418235
Quote: XBMCbuntu has brightness and contrast because it does software decoding.
What my testing above shows that the Haswell NUC hardware and drivers should be capable of that.
I did some quick testing with mplayer-vaapi and didn't see any obvious errors (and I would be surprised if the decoding wasn't bit exact). It is pretty unstable though - good work XBMC devs making the decoding work much better
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - voip-ninja - 2013-11-15
I agree, proper hardware output is much more important for most of us with calibrated displays than using software decoding band-aids like manual contrast, brightness and color controls.
In my admittedly limited experience one of the issues historically has been trying to get a developer who is looking at video output on a small low-end LCD to even recognize that the video output levels or color space are incorrect.
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - lmyllari - 2013-11-15
(2013-11-15, 08:53)Alchete Wrote: lmyllari, thank you. You're doing more scientific testing than I am.Alchete, and any other who would like to help:
I think it's best to wait for more details and a reproducible test case. If you'd like to file the bug report, please do. If you'd rather not, I'll take your information and try my best on the mailing list and bugzilla.
Cheers
I think there is a driver issue with signaling the quantization range over HDMI. This is why the xrandr workaround is needed. When the driver notices it's connected to a TV (a CEA video mode and EDID indicating quantization range select support), it automatically sets 16-235 range. It should also tell the TV it's using this range (by sending AVI infoframes).
I think the infoframes are not being sent properly.
This is based on my observations from one system only, so I'd like to have a bit more data before reporting it.
If you have a DVD or bluray player (or some other video source) that lets you select between full and limited range RGB output, please test the following, and let me know with your source and TV make/model.
1) Try switching between limited and full range on your NUC with
Code:
xrandr --output HDMI1 --set "Broadcast RGB" "Full"Code:
xrandr --output HDMI1 --set "Broadcast RGB" "Limited 16:235"2) Try the same switch with your other video source. Does the picture change between black and grey black level?
I have tested this with Oppo BDP-93 and KRP-500m, and the Oppo seems to control the monitor input range. There is no change in black level when switching RGB ranges. (I verified with manual settings from the monitor that the range had indeed changed).
(If you interested in technical details, see https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46800#c20 for the driver code that implemented this stuff)
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - Alchete - 2013-11-15
(2013-11-15, 19:12)lmyllari Wrote: 1) Try switching between limited and full range on your NUC withYes, these both work on my i3 Haswell NUC.andCode:xrandr --output HDMI1 --set "Broadcast RGB" "Full"- does the picture change between black and grey black level?Code:xrandr --output HDMI1 --set "Broadcast RGB" "Limited 16:235"
"Full" results in black levels that are clipped (too dark).
"Limited" results in black levels that are washed out gray.
A few months ago I was running XBMC to the same television from either my Ouya or an Ubuntu laptop (can't remember which). But, the black levels were also too dark. I downloaded a beta XBMC (Gotham?) that had a "limited RGB" option in their menu, and it fixed the black levels perfectly at the time.
My setup:
- Panasonic VT-50 plasma
- i3 Haswell NUC
- OpenELEC 3.2.3 intel build
------------------
Thanks for the bug report link. If I read that correctly, it looks like Intel delivered a fix to their Linux driver on Oct. 30 to address an issue where the xrandr settings weren't working.
I guess if the black levels are changing with xrandr, that's not the patch we're looking for.
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - lmyllari - 2013-11-15
(2013-11-15, 19:37)Alchete Wrote:This means that the signaling is not working. If it was, you should see no change in black level. Do you have any other video source that you could use to check that your TV supports this?(2013-11-15, 19:12)lmyllari Wrote: 1) Try switching between limited and full range on your NUC withYes, these both work on my i3 Haswell NUC.andCode:xrandr --output HDMI1 --set "Broadcast RGB" "Full"- does the picture change between black and grey black level?Code:xrandr --output HDMI1 --set "Broadcast RGB" "Limited 16:235"
"Full" results in black levels that are clipped (too dark).
"Limited" results in black levels that are washed out gray.
(2013-11-15, 19:37)Alchete Wrote: Thanks for the bug report link. If I read that correctly, it looks like Intel delivered a fix to their Linux driver on Oct. 30.Note the commit dates. "drm/i915: Add "Automatic" mode for the "Broadcast RGB" property" is the one that causes limited level by default with TVs, "drm/i915: Provide the quantization range in the AVI infoframe" should tell the TV to render it correctly (this is the one I suspect is not working properly on Haswell). I think OE already has them both.
Is that patch headed to OpenELEC or somewhere we can get it?
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - Alchete - 2013-11-15
(2013-11-15, 19:43)lmyllari Wrote: This means that the signaling is not working. If it was, you should see no change in black level. Do you have any other video source that you could use to check that your TV supports this?I have an Ubuntu laptop running XBMC (i7 integrated graphics), and a BluRay player. I can look for "limited RGB" settings in the bluray player and try the xrandr in Ubuntu. Let me know if there's some other way to test this.
Again, my memory is returning -- I believe I ran XBMC Gotham on the i7 laptop, which had a "limited RGB" within XBMC settings to fix this issue there.
Is there a Gotham build of XBMC for OpenELEC? Has anyone tried this route?
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - -DDD- - 2013-11-15
Here is the Gotham Build of OpenELEC http://openelec.tv/forum/20-development-discussion/67846-xbmc-gotham-generic-nightly-builds
http://sources.openelec.tv/tmp/image/
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - lmyllari - 2013-11-15
(2013-11-15, 19:59)Alchete Wrote: I have an Ubuntu laptop running XBMC (i7 integrated graphics), and a BluRay player. I can look for "limited RGB" settings in the bluray player and try the xrandr in Ubuntu. Let me know if there's some other way to test this.Please test both. If the laptop is not Haswell, that might be a useful data point. I'm very interested in the bluray result.
Quote:Again, my memory is returning -- I believe I ran XBMC Gotham on the i7 laptop, which had a "limited RGB" within XBMC settings to fix this issue there.I have it set up and will look into it tonight. I did try it quickly earlier and couldn't get proper output, although it's possible I messed up some setting elsewhere.
Is there a Gotham build of XBMC for OpenELEC? Has anyone tried this route?
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - arokh - 2013-11-15
Cant u recalibrate after setting Full?
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - gamble - 2013-11-15
I think if u want to recalibrate the Display u should go from the Limited
one, cuz u can tune the brightness down...calibrating the Full RGB would
make no sense cuz the lost details in black won't come back if u make the image brighter...
Problem then is the Display would be calibrated for the XBMC only, if u change devices via
the AV Receiver the picture settings won't be correct for the rest like BR Player, Sat Receiver, Playstation etc.
Just my 2 cents..
RE: Intel NUC - HTPC (Haswell Late 2013 edition) - voip-ninja - 2013-11-15
Having to re-calibrate is a very bad option. For one thing you recalibrate the TV for this messed up output and all of your other stuff is now messed up if you are going through an AVR and using one input as most of us probably are.
Second thing is that I rented a very expensive colorometer to do my calibration, I don't plan to have to shell out $200 to rent the damn thing again to fix this.
Hopefully there's a better way, or no NUC 4 me.