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+--- Thread: FanArt and Thumbnails Naming-Standard and File-Structure Convension Rationalisation? (/showthread.php?tid=49801)
- xexe - 2009-06-25
AnalogKid Wrote:Absolutely not. There is no requirement on folder structure at all, since the naming scheme is designed to work in folder, flat, or scattered structures...
No matter where the artwork is placed, if XBMC can see it, it can very easily tie it to a movie / song / artist etc.
As for the stacking, that's easily covered...
Starwars-CD1.avi
Starwars-CD2.avi (and all similar stacking conventions)
This is resolved by XBMC into 'Starwars'. Therefore, the artwork will begin with Starwars.xxx.xxx.xx. (etc)
This really is precisely the same as things currently work, but with the new scheme, there are no alternative art file names (which removes all the confusion, conflict possibilities and extra code required by XBMC) e.g.
Starwars-CD1.avi
Starwars-CD2.avi
Starwars.movie.fanart <---- the only choice
Starwars.movie.cover <---- the only choice
Starwars-fanart.jpg <--- no longer possible
movie.tbn <--- no longer possible
folder.jpg <--- no longer possible
folder.tbn <--- no longer possible
Of course user who already HAVE 'folder.jpg' etc CAN still keep the files if they want to, or they can easily have them 'ported' to the new scheme... since we know the -fanart extension will be a fanart so we can rename it, and we know that today, folder.jpg, movie.tbn etc will transpose to 'movie.cover' (or even movie.cover.<landscape/portrait>)
Those current 'folder.jpg' and 'movie.tbn' filenames just don't cover enough artwork possibilities anymore (if you change skin from a portrait thumb to landscape thumb skin, you are screwed today). If you want to have multiple fanarts (cycled), you are again screwed. If you want to have movie framegrabs... skinners are inventing custom hacks to get this.
I dont understand how you plan to handle a folder with this sample content:
starwars.avi
starwars1.avi
starwars-CD1.avi
starwars-CD1.avi
starwars2.avi
starwars2.mkv
without relying completely on regex stacking.
personally i think people who organise things in this way are mad but XBMC specifically allows then to do it so your scheme would either need to accommodate or come up with some naming or folder requirements.
You say "This really is precisely the same as things currently work," which is obviously correct, it is stacking regex which is completely user configurable and as such every app using these images would have to be able to handle all default and user added regex in the precise xbmc way.
This is a really important point if the naming scheme is to truely be cross application and platform especially since there is nothing stopping this regex changing all the time.
- Paradise - 2009-06-25
Hi, i don't know why we talk here about poster and coverart or fanart.
Fanart can be a cover or anything else. What is a poster? A poster for me
is a piece of paper i put on the wall or somebody who writes in the web.
This naming of all this stuff is confusing.
Also i don't understand the 9:16 aspect for the covers. My DVD covers are not
9:16, they are 755x1080 px.
Also i think there is no landscape cover.
This is what i think covers all we need - my suggestion (without music)
Please also look at http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=53511 and
http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?p=358219
moviename.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
moviename.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
moviename.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
moviename.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
moviename.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
moviename.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape)
moviename.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
moviename.clearart.png (500x281 landscape)
moviename.movieart.png (1920x1080 landscape)
tvshowname.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
tvshowname.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape)
tvshowname.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
tvshowname.clearart.png (500x281 landscape)
tvshowname.showart.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
seasonname.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
seasonname.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
seasonname.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
seasonname.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
seasonname.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
seasonname.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape)
seasonname.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
episodename.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
episodename.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
boxsetname.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
boxsetname.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
boxsetname.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
boxsetname.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
boxsetname.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
boxsetname.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape)
boxsetname.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
discsetname.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
discsetname.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
discsetname.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
discsetname.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
discsetname.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
discsetname.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape)
discsetname.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
movierowname.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
movierowname.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
- Gangsta - 2009-06-25
Paradise Wrote:Hi, i don't know why we talk here about poster and coverart or fanart.
Fanart can be a cover or anything else. What is a poster? A poster for me
is a piece of paper i put on the wall or somebody who writes in the web.
The posters are exactly that, the pictures that you put on the wall, they are *usually* although not always more graphically pleasing than their dvd cover counterparts.
I tend to use posters first, then dvd covers if I cant find a poster. I like the idea of having both, or at least the freedom to do so.
Also, I just looked at the resolutions that listed above, they may be fine for your system - but for my xbox they are waaay overkill - and will just waste my precious hard disc space.
- AnalogKid - 2009-06-25
Paradise Wrote:Hi, i don't know why we talk here about poster and coverart or fanart.
Fanart can be a cover or anything else. What is a poster? A poster for me
is a piece of paper i put on the wall or somebody who writes in the web.
This naming of all this stuff is confusing.
Also i don't understand the 9:16 aspect for the covers. My DVD covers are not
9:16, they are 755x1080 px.
Also i think there is no landscape cover.
This is what i think covers all we need - my suggestion (without music)
Please also look at http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=53511 and
http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?p=358219
moviename.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
moviename.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
moviename.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
moviename.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
moviename.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
moviename.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape)
moviename.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
moviename.clearart.png (500x281 landscape)
moviename.movieart.png (1920x1080 landscape)
tvshowname.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
tvshowname.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape)
tvshowname.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
tvshowname.clearart.png (500x281 landscape)
tvshowname.showart.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
seasonname.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
seasonname.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
seasonname.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
seasonname.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
seasonname.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
seasonname.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape)
seasonname.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
episodename.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
episodename.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
boxsetname.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
boxsetname.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
boxsetname.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
boxsetname.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
boxsetname.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
boxsetname.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape)
boxsetname.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
discsetname.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
discsetname.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
discsetname.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
discsetname.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
discsetname.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
discsetname.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape)
discsetname.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
movierowname.backdrop.jpg (1920x1080 landscape)
movierowname.screenshot.jpg (960x540 landscape)
Please read the actual spec first, it covers most of what you want, AND a lot more besides. Wide covers are used by SOME skins. Your covers may be portrait, not everybody's are. Also, every type of media is covered in the spec, not just movies.
We really do welcome your contribution, but it would be more helpful if it looked liked you had read the spec first. There is a fair chance that we have actually thought this through for a while and so any solution must not be just to satisfy one individuals setup.
- AnalogKid - 2009-06-25
Gangsta Wrote:Loving this discussion, as I really like to have an organised library too. I think you guys have done an awsome job with the schema so far.
I would like to hear a bit more from fekker, and something from billyad2000 regarding its implication on the media managers, as well as some input from the scraper devs.
Slightly OT. On page 3 or 4 of this thread, there is talk about the cache, my tuppenceworth would be this:- if possible cache the 'default' image as required by the current skin - eg frontcover or poster, in a ready to use format (already resized, mabey reduced quality etc) and use the cached image in the first instance to get the display drawn, then (if chosen in the skin settings) it pulls in the full resolution artwork from whereever local, network etc and updates the display with them assuming you stay on that page long enough, this will allow quick scanning through the library, and full resolution artwork at the same time.
Absolutely agree. Although, it's hard for XBMC to know what to cache and how much sometimes, some skins might want landscape art, some want portrait etc
I had envisaged much the same though.... XBMC caches as it deems fit (and MAYBE is given a hint by the skin). But the skin can pull full resolution art if it desires. The files being discussed here, would be as hi-res as the user can muster, XBMC can scale them down any way it needs to.
- Paradise - 2009-06-25
AnalogKid Wrote:Please read the actual spec first, it covers most of what you want, AND a lot more besides.
I tought this is what this thread is on? And here you say:
AnalogKid Wrote:Those current 'folder.jpg' and 'movie.tbn' filenames just don't cover enough artwork possibilities anymore (if you change skin from a portrait thumb to landscape thumb skin, you are screwed today). If you want to have multiple fanarts (cycled), you are again screwed. If you want to have movie framegrabs... skinners are inventing custom hacks to get this.
AnalogKid Wrote:Your covers may be portrait, not everybody's are.
I bet everybodies are. I never saw a dvd case lie on the side.
If this is all posible, i'm to stubid and im the only one here who knows how to do this http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=53286 and that http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=53511
- AnalogKid - 2009-06-25
Paradise Wrote:I tought this is what this thread is on? And here you say:
I bet everybodies are. I never saw a dvd case lie on the side.
If this is all posible, i'm to stubid and im the only one here who knows how to do this http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=53286 and that http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=53511
The Aeon Auriga skin introduced landscape 'thumbs' (covers) for TV shows and there are already about 500 titles in this format.
Plus, you must also consider the future... blueray format has already changed the disc packaging slightly, and it's quite possible that some new format will introduce landscape. The spec offer the OPTION to mark art as landscape.
Any schema HAS to be flexible and not make assumptions just because 'today' things work this way.
a VERY good example of this was raised today, where a user wanted to run XBMC on portrait screen mode. XBMC can't handle this at the moment, but probably will soon. This is why fanart can be portrait (for example)
- Paradise - 2009-06-25
@AnalogKid, i totally agree. So just put landscape and portait to my suggestion.
But a TV shows thumb for me is not a cover. Its a thumb, fanart, banner and this is
what tvshowname.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape) is for. For poster view how they call it (for me its a cover) is
tvshowname.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
- AnalogKid - 2009-06-25
xexe Wrote:I dont understand how you plan to handle a folder with this sample content:
starwars.avi
starwars1.avi
starwars-CD1.avi
starwars-CD1.avi
starwars2.avi
starwars2.mkv
without relying completely on regex stacking.
personally i think people who organise things in this way are mad but XBMC specifically allows then to do it so your scheme would either need to accommodate or come up with some naming or folder requirements.
starwars.avi -> starwars.movie.fanart
starwars1.avi -> starwars1.movie.fanart
starwars-CD1.avi -> interesting case here IF starwars.avi exists also.
starwars-CD1.avi -> was this supposed to be CD2? otherwise this use case is invalid
starwars2.avi -> starwars2.movie.fanart
starwars2.mkv -> user would have to rename or we can fix with below solution
For the 'interesting cases' I think we can fix this easily in the spec with
starwars.avi.movie.fanart (incorporating the extension too)
starwars-CD1.movie.fanart (incorporating the stacking info but not too keen on this)
so, the movie stacking isn't an issue... but the case here (as you've described) is:
Starwars.avi
Starwars-CD1.avi
Starwars-CD2.avi
if the user renames Starwars.avi... the problem is solved
OR the schema needs to handle stacks slightly differently ie.
Starwars-CD1.avi artwork is found in the following
-- Starwars-CD1.movie.artwork
-- Starwars.movie.artwork
Starwars-CD2.avi artwork is found in the following
-- Starwars-CD2.movie.artwork
-- Starwars-CD1.movie.artwork
-- Starwars.movie.artwork
Of course, in your use case, the user cannot use 'starwars.movie.artwork' since this is used by starwars.avi
So, in summary, I think we can handle it, but.. I'm more in favour of having the user rename the file, since this is (imo) an artificial use case.
What do you think?... I think we can solve it, but just want find the best choice
- AnalogKid - 2009-06-25
Paradise Wrote:@AnalogKid, i totally agree. So just put landscape and portait to my suggestion.
But a TV shows thumb for me is not a cover. Its a thumb, fanart, banner and this is
what tvshowname.banner.jpg (960x540 landscape) is for. For poster view how they call it (for me its a cover) is
tvshowname.cover.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverart.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
tvshowname.coverartback.jpg (755x1080 portrait)
The spec already covers the following:
Fanart
Banner
FrontCover
BackCover
InsideCover
Sleeve
Poster
Disc
Frame
Logo
A poster is different from a front cover. A poster is the actual poster used to promote a movie (usually LOOKS like a cover but with "coming soon..." and a list of actors / credits etc). Some users prefer these to the read DVD front covers.
All the things you've suggested are already taken care of in the spec (except boxsets etc... but there is another thread you've created for this). If XBMC decides to support boxsets, I'll definitely add it to the spec). The spec also allows multiple instances of ANY type of artwork... it's all covered
- Paradise - 2009-06-26
Where can i see the specs your talking about (link)? I get lost in the wiki..., and everywhere i read they talk about .tbn not cover.jpg.
Your right, you can have the movie poster or the cover. Nothing wrong if we have this solution. For me i think everything has to look like i look into my DVD-rack
.Put than i also don't understand this 9:16 thing. Cause movieposters are not 9:16.
Sorry if i don't understand this thread if this is allready there
Frame? Really? All i know is this extrathumbs folder that forces me to make a extra folder for every disc in a boxset/discset...
- ccMatrix - 2009-06-26
Paradise Wrote:Where can i see the specs your talking about (link)? I get lost in the wiki..., and everywhere i read they talk about .tbn not cover.jpg.
Your right, you can have the movie poster or the cover. Nothing wrong if we have this solution. For me i think everything has to look like i look into my DVD-rack
Put than i also don't understand this 9:16 thing. Cause movieposters are not 9:16.
Sorry if i don't understand this thread if this is allready there
Frame? Really? All i know is this extrathumbs folder that forces me to make a extra folder for every disc in a boxset/discset...
Maybe it is best if you go to the very fist post of this thread and start reading. Page 3 has the proposed naming scheme.
- Paradise - 2009-06-26
@ccMatrix, your right, the "proposed" naming scheme. But AnalogKid is saying its allready possible what i want.
AnalogKid Wrote:Please read the actual spec first, it covers most of what you want
OH WAIT!!
Did he mean in his specification, his propose? That my propose is possible with his propose? He did not talk about the actual XBMC specs?
Holly sh... - i got you. Sh... this is embarrassing.
1000 times sorry AnalogKid, this was a communication problem.
Ok, so we need the BoxSet, DiskSet stuff and AnalogKid's propose and i can start putting my media into XBMC.
- xexe - 2009-06-26
AnalogKid Wrote:starwars.avi -> starwars.movie.fanart
starwars1.avi -> starwars1.movie.fanart
starwars-CD1.avi -> interesting case here IF starwars.avi exists also.
starwars-CD1.avi -> was this supposed to be CD2? otherwise this use case is invalid
starwars2.avi -> starwars2.movie.fanart
starwars2.mkv -> user would have to rename or we can fix with below solution
For the 'interesting cases' I think we can fix this easily in the spec with
starwars.avi.movie.fanart (incorporating the extension too)
starwars-CD1.movie.fanart (incorporating the stacking info but not too keen on this)
so, the movie stacking isn't an issue... but the case here (as you've described) is:
Starwars.avi
Starwars-CD1.avi
Starwars-CD2.avi
if the user renames Starwars.avi... the problem is solved
OR the schema needs to handle stacks slightly differently ie.
Starwars-CD1.avi artwork is found in the following
-- Starwars-CD1.movie.artwork
-- Starwars.movie.artwork
Starwars-CD2.avi artwork is found in the following
-- Starwars-CD2.movie.artwork
-- Starwars-CD1.movie.artwork
-- Starwars.movie.artwork
Of course, in your use case, the user cannot use 'starwars.movie.artwork' since this is used by starwars.avi
So, in summary, I think we can handle it, but.. I'm more in favour of having the user rename the file, since this is (imo) an artificial use case.
What do you think?... I think we can solve it, but just want find the best choice
I think that its complex. For this to be successful it should closely match how XBMC works both now and in the future.
If you need XBMC logic changed you stand a much smaller chance of getting it implemented unless you can code it yourself.
The devs also have very strong opinions on stacking etc so that should be kept in mind as well.
I would say that renaming should essentially never be considered. You should not have to rename your collection to cater for software... the software should cater for your naming.
XBMC does this by using the stacking regex and the stacked name nfo which we have seen in these examples.
Also what if a user has this sources setup
\\disk1\movies\
\\disk2\movies\
and each source contained starwars.1.avi with nfos that define what they are.
XBMC caters for this but you will have two identically named files for potentially two completely differrnt movies. This is the exact situation you want to avoid because it means your JPGs are folder/path sensitive.
Also now these helper applications need to not only be able to handle XBMC native stacking regex, XBMC user stacking regex they also need to be able to understand all the nfo type files XBMC does and be aware of the differnt sources paths to ensure it doesnt cache the files itself and create clash of identically named files.
So whilst this example may be artifical if XBMC handles it your naming scheme needs to handle it.
This takes us on to stacked naming. The only way to know what a movies stacks to is to use software or XBMC itself. You can guess on most occasions but not all. So now we have to teach users what stacking regex is and how to deal with it.
And TBH were not even at some of the potential really complicated edge cases yet.
So you/we are definately getting there but its easy to pick a scheme that works most of the time but it needs to work all of the time.
- Gangsta - 2009-06-26
Flexibility is good, but in the end, the users have to take some responsibility for their actions.
Having two films with the same name (excluding stacking, etc) could only happen if the user made the decision to put them in seperate directories/drives. Why is this - its because the clever folk who have been designing O/Ss for the last 40 years decided that having two files with the same name in the same folder would be confusing, therefore preventing it happening. It should be the same here.
I Think that XBMC should 'assume' that the first file with a name specified that it finds is the correct match to the artwork, and ignore any others.
The scrapers and media managers/scrapers can do a quick check, and if it comes up with potential clashes, bring up a box.
'You have more than 1 file called <filename>.<ext> - you should rename one of the files, to make it unique, possibly adding the year, or studio etc to the name.'
'Having unique filenames across all sources is best practice and essential for predictable results within your media centre'
Either that or a small script bundled with XBMC, that scans your library looking for potential problems and offering advice.
My last thought on the subject was adding a tag to the advancedsettings.xml something like <strictmediarules>
Using that setting as a simple switch in the code, if <strictmediarules> is turned on, it skips over all the existing filehandling code, to some new code that ONLY looks for the filenames, types etc defined in the schema. And we (the users supporting the new 'standard' and not doing stupid things like calling two movies the same name without distinguishing between them will benefit from the speed improvement (by only looking for one specific file for each purpose) and get the benefit of a more organised library too. If <strictmediarules> is turned off then the systems works exactly as it does now, but carries on in code to look for the new schema based artwork once it has exhausted folder.jpg, moviename.jpg, etc
Possibly my suggestion above about only using the first set of artwork with the first set of media files should only be enforced in strict mode - as it would be a requirement of turning on strict that you dont have duplicate file names.
Skins could take advantage of the setting, and behave appropiatly, if its on, then it can request very specific items, and look really smart - if the setting is off then it does what it can to make it look good with the unknown artwork its getting handed.
sorry if im rambling - im sooo tired