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+---- Thread: 24p and audio sync issues (/showthread.php?tid=80247)
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - torcar - 2012-05-18
I have now purchased and installed a new AMD 6450 card and the problem is.... wait for it... still there ;/
The 6450 card did no difference what so ever i'm sad to say.
So... square one again
Ideas anyone?
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - DDDamian - 2012-05-18
Hi torcar - are you still using AE with the 6450? We now have nearly identical systems, and I never get that issue. Not only that, the 6450 ranked about the best in 23.976 timing in professional tests, and several others reported great sync with it.
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - torcar - 2012-05-18
DDDamian: Im back to standard Eden 11.0. AE crashed every few hours when running slideshow screensaver.
Could of course try swapping to AE just for the hell of it
And while we're on it... just to rule out any differences in our setup... Could you tell me all your relevant settings?
Windows desktop resolution/hz
XBMC settings (Adjust display refresh rate to match video), Sync to display, rendering etc etc...
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - DDDamian - 2012-05-18
Heh, never tried a slideshow with it. The interesting thing is I have no sync issues almost regardless of settings. The two I always have specifically set are: always run true fullscreen (never a fullscreen window) and never use Sync to Display.
In Catalyst Control Center makes sure you have added 1080p24 to the list of supported resolutions under "My FlatPanel TV"
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - torcar - 2012-05-21
@DDDamian
I have now tried AE again with the 6450 and the problem still accours in about the same way as before...
First:
Just to have asked it, and don't take this the wrong way;p
You are absolutely sure that you dont have any kind of audio delay in your setup when running 24p material? No dropped frames and no delays even with "Adjust display refresh rate to match video" enabled?
I only ask because some people are very aware of delays, and others are not... same principle as with the rainbow effect on DLP-projectors... some people see it, others dont... even if it's there
Second:
Do you (guys) have any idea as to what the root cause to this issue is or are we still shooting in the dark on this one?
Third:
Using my own rig as an example... I can run any movie @50fps or @60fps (using desktop refresh rate) with 0 dropped frames and absolutely no audio sync issues. I can even pause, skip, add subtitles etc etc. without one single dropped frame even on large (20-30GB mkv's)
So... if i'm not totally mistaken here the rig should have more than enough ompf to handle the load. Average CPU load when running a large file is 0.5-2.0%
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - DDDamian - 2012-05-21
@torcar
My sync is bang-on: no delay and no dropped frames. While it's possible I'm just not sensitive to it (I'm much more audio-centric) I have spent quite some time looking for it, as well as using the diagnostics overlay to watch for dropped frames with various settings.
It is absolutely a shot in the dark - based on anecdotal evidence (user reports) that 24p sync is good with AE. Being a total re-write of the audio code, any sync improvement was accidental only. There is no "aha - there it was" line of code anyone can point at. Part of the issue is that none of the devs can repro this problem. I've been in team chats of the type "do you get it? no? I don't get it either. Perfect here, does anyone see it?"
I've never thought it was a horsepower issue. Much more likely that it's a slight mismatch in sync between video and audio clocking frequencies, whether from your TV, receiver, GPU or XBMC.
It sounds like an issue which affects a subset of users: those with systems that suffer from it and users sensitive to it. By all accounts, both here and in professional reviews, the ATI 6450 should be the best clocker out there, and it has many fans here for that reason. That only rules out one part of the puzzle though. Does your NAD support HDMI lip-sync? As another test, bypass the NAD and see how sync is straight to the TV.
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - torcar - 2012-05-21
@DDDamian
Never really though you didn't have sync... just good to rule out anything that's possible to rule out
Don't know if I'll manage to free up time for it today, but as soon as possible I will install a fresh disk in the rig and re-install everything from the ground up. That way I'll be able to rule out settings, bad installs etc etc...
If you could assist me with some info from your rig, that would be great. (Will try to duplicate your rig as close as possible
Which XBMC-AE build? (DL-link if possible?)
Which Windows version (X86/X64) with patch-level. (SP1 with all windows updates?)
Which Catalyst drivers?
Which main-board and what BIOS version? (I just thought of this now... that could also maaaaybe be a factor since both audio and video is sent to the VGA-card through the PCI-E slot) The BIOS could possible manage to screw something up here...
Other relevant drivers, add-ons, settings etc?
What Windows desktop resolution/refresh-rate do you use?
And to fill in...
The NAD does have lip-sync adjustment, but not lip-sync on/off. The M15 is recognized as one of the worlds most exact pre-amps, so they don't see any need for lip-sync other than to manually compensate for delays in other components.
The Pioneer KRP display does not have any speakers, so testing a direct connection will be difficult... however the delay is exactly the same when using both a Denon 3808, a DENON AVP-A1HDA and the NAD M15 HD2, so i'm very doubtful that the delay is produced by the amp/pre-amp. Also, there is no delay when running a 24p movie through the NAD with a Popcorn Hour C-300, WDTV live gen.3 or with VLC player running on the same rig. It all points directly to XBMC sadly :/
Anyhow... If you could supply me with the most possible info on your rig I will try to duplicate my own to match yours as close as possible.
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - DDDamian - 2012-05-21
@torcar,
- using really any XBMC, from Eden w/o AE to latest nightly with AE no issues here
- Win 7 x64, SP1 all updates current
- have used Catalyst 12.1 - 12.4
- mobo MSI 870G54 - prolly haven't checked BIOS version for a year now
- desktop resolution 1080p 60hz (until switched by XBMC to match frequency)
- only odd setting might be "Enforce Smooth Playback" in Catalyst Control Center
- that machine has very little else on it. My dev machine has everything on it lol - codecs, tweaks, you name it, but same smoot sync
- other details in my sig
Just one thing - NAD can consider themselves what they like, but the lipsync thing was meant to compensate for delays in device processing beyond just the amp - they can be as "precise" as they want, and they are a good name, but if your TV adds delay it matters little how "precise" the amp is
Unfortunately if your other software doesn't exhibit this issue, it certainly does point to XBMC, or at least the interaction of XBMC with your system.
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - DDDamian - 2012-06-02
@torcar - any updates?
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - torcar - 2012-06-02
Sorry for using a bit of time on this guys
Updates... yes, I'll sum it up as short as possible
I re-installed the entire OS and went for the latest nightly and the AMD6450 card. This seemed to be a good combo and the sync was spot on even on 24p material.
The problem with this install however was that when turning off the TV and pre-amp for a while (over night) I got a problem when starting up again.
In the log files I got a "resize event" that caused XBMC to end up in a window in the top left corner of the screen with the windows desktop visible around it. The window covered about 1/3 of the screen. XBMC still reported to be 1920x1080@60HZ, but it didn't cover more than 1/3 of the screen.
I figured this to be a Catalyst related problem, so I changed the VGA card to a Nvidia GT520 and the problem disappeared at once.
I'm still testing, but so far it seem that the audio sync is pretty spot on with some exceptions. Sometimes I can find that the sync is a little of, but just a few seconds later it seems good again. I have not had the time to watch a lot of material since the last change, so I can't say anything certain yet.
Does anyone else have the same experiences?
I think I'm going to wait for the May cycle and try the 6450 card once more with that build to see if this resize problem disappears with that update. I would like to be able to keep the 6450 since this is thought to be the best 24p card out there... however I cant compromise any user-friendliness (having to re-start XBMC everytime the TV is turned on) as I'm not the only one using the rig.
So... this is as far as I've come so far... still keeping the hope up
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - robl45 - 2012-06-02
for the life of me I can't understand how this goes on and on and on. There is a problem no matter how much people pretend its not there. the last I got from this was its because 24p is run at 24hz and since they are the same refresh rate and not a multiple of that, thats why you get the missed counter going crazy and the sync is off. 25fps plays with no issues on 50hz. I've had stuff start normal, then just lose sync at random times until I pause and unpause repeatedly until the missed counter stops.
Its without a doubt the single biggest issue with XBMC and should be the highest priority of anything considering that 99% of films at this point are 24p. Months ago I had to give up and use mpc-hc as an external player with reclock to fix the issue.
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - torcar - 2012-06-02
@robl45
I absolutely agree with you. This problem has followed XBMC for a looong time, and it's a real hassle. Personally i'm very sensitive to sync-issues while others are not... On one side I could understand that it's harder to get XBMC to do 24p perfectly as it has to play on many different hardware configurations, but on the other side... it works on external players on the same rig.
I work as an IT-professional myself and i'm somewhat of an audiophile, but coding is not my field of expertise so I have no idea when it comes to how hard this issue is to sort out in the code.
As I understand, a part of the reason why this problem has existed for such a long time is that it's hard to replicate for those who's not afflicted. (DDDamian: Correct me if i'm wrong)
Now... on the other hand... The only reason why all of us is able to enjoy the O'so delicious world of XBMC is only because people like DDDamian and the others are using their free time to make it a reality, so yes... this problem has caused me sooo many hours of irritation and insomnia, but still I'm very very grateful that they keep working on these bugs.
I sincerely hope this particular issue/bug is placed aaaaaall the way on top of the list of issues and who knows... one of these days maybe it will be a forgotten chapter of XBMC's life;)
As I have stated earlier in this thread I now experience very little sync-issues after a complete re-install from the OS, drivers and XBMC. Now running a nightly from early may.
I've had very little time to test because issues like this is best discovered by simply watching several complete movies/series etc, but so far it seems that instead of having constant sync issues I now have sync for about 70% of the movie. (70% is a ball park estimate by my own subjective assessment)
One thing I would find very useful (if it exists) is some .mkv's encoded with 24p that can be used for testing audio sync.
Something like this, only in 24p: http://editorsean.com/blog/49-audiovideosynctest
Anyways... Let's all hope DDDamian and the other guys is putting this issue on the very top of the list.
Personally I thing sorting out bugs is more important that implementing new features, but that of course is only my two cents;)
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - robl45 - 2012-06-02
very simple way to test for sync. get a 24p film playing, make sure sync to display is to video/drop dupe is usually what I would use and then bring up the screen at the top that shows the missing counter, if its not shooting up, it should be synced, if its just counting up, it ain't working.
I mentioned this before and I believe its a lot of the problem that if you look at that same display, it will show 24 instead of 23.976 or whatever which I believe is messing things up. same thing I had in reclock until I changed it from directdraw to d3d.
the way it should work is you pause the movie and missing starts running up. unpause and missing should stop moving. Same thing when you start a movie, there will probably be some misses as it starts but then it shouldn't be moving.
unfortunately, its not even an issue of pausing and unpausing until it stops missing and go on your way. Thats annoying, believe me I did it for months until I switched to mpc-hc. But the real problem is when I was watching a movie, I was an hour in and all of a sudden the sync is off when it hadn't been the rest of the time, so I pull up the display and now missing is running up. That was the final straw for me. I want to watch my movies, not have to worry about whether they randomly go in and out of sync.
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - DDDamian - 2012-06-02
(2012-06-02, 20:47)torcar Wrote: As I understand, a part of the reason why this problem has existed for such a long time is that it's hard to replicate for those who's not afflicted. (DDDamian: Correct me if i'm wrong)
Love the phrase "afflicted"
No your not wrong - you're bang on. This is not an ignored issue so much as one that we can't readily reproduce.Whether we're less-sensitive to it, or have the right hardware combinations is hard to say, but asking around the dev team (who are mostly videophiles) we don't seem to be among the "afflicted".
As mentioned, some folks using the latest with AE have reported the sync-issue resolved, cases where they previously had the same issues.
Google around and it's not just XBMC with the issue so much as it's also a GPU clocking issue, but I think it's fair to say XBMC + bad hw timing is the worst combination.
The well-respected (by me anyways!) AVS forums have a very telling thread on the issue: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-1333324.html
Keep us posted when you've had more time to play with your new build!
RE: 24p and audio sync issues - robl45 - 2012-06-02
i used the audio engine build, it was better, but still had same symptoms, just happened a bit less often and Xvid/avi's were actually tolerable on the audioengine build where they were completely out of sync on the normal build.