[Rich.T.]

* natethomas reiterates his lack of concern for Rich.T's benefit.

To be clear though, Rich, my lack of concern is for acting as a conduit between one third party that isn't offering anything through Team Kodi and other third parties who aren't receiving anything through Team Kodi. I also feel no need to help users of the pirate repos or the catchall repos. I was willing to try to help here, because for some reason users felt strongly about getting support on our forum for something that's not going through us at all and per the author never will, but realistically speaking, once an add-on has been removed from our repo and there's no clear goal or intent for it ever to go back, I see no real obligation for us to spend resources supporting it. We could out of the goodness of our hearts, but that's about it.

Thanks for the reply, Nate. At least we all know where we stand now.

[BobCratchett]

I know this thread is due to be automatically closed - and I agree that that's probably a good thing - but I've been following this since the beginning and there's one thing that I just don't get. Note, I don't expect - or particularly want - to get a specific response to this, I just feel the need to express myself at the end at what has appeared to be a difficult time in regards to the relation and communication between the Kodi team and the users who contribute via other means, such as scripts.

What I don't get is why Rob has now been banned. I absolutely get that his repository/addons - due to privacy and potential piracy concerns - aren't allowed to be promoted on the forums. I really do get that, and I'm left in a position where, as someone who has previously used his addons on my system and added support for them to my own skins, I don't want to use or support them. What I don't get is why these facts have led to a perma-ban, when there are forum members openly posting here (at least one earlier in this thread/one of the related threads which have kind of all merged in my brain, and a persistent user who appears to be primarily responsible for a major must-not-be-named website) who freely admit to maintianing or promoting addons which openly violate the forums piracy policy.

I don't get why someone whose ultimate purpose in these conversations appeared to be to try and get his personal repo 'whitelisted' for the site wasn't just given a simple "No, you can't promote your repo" answer and was instead banned, whilst people who are in some cases actively promote their allegiance to things that are out there and causing harm to the public perception of Kodi are still allowed to post.

And now, having said my piece, I sincerely hope that the community can come together and agree that Rob's addons did cross a line which wasn't acceptable on the forums, and move on.

[bilgepump]

What I don't get is why these facts have led to a perma-ban, when there are forum members openly posting here (at least one earlier in this thread/one of the related threads which have kind of all merged in my brain, and a persistent user who appears to be primarily responsible for a major must-not-be-named website) who freely admit to maintianing or promoting addons which openly violate the forums piracy policy.

If that's the case, then I would agree that the reasons for the ban aren't crystal clear. I thought that that was "normal" in the circumstances. If it isn't, then the cries of "robwebset was hard done-by" may have some weight that I didn't recognise. If the other users aren't promoting or discussing their third party activities here, maybe that is why they haven't been banned? Another thing could be the openness with which they are conducting their other activities? I certainly feel that it is a gross breach of trust for a developer to include code knowing it to be contrary to the rules of the product it is to be used on. Obviously anyone using an unapproved add-on to obtain content knows what they are doing and that's their responsibility, but installing something believing it to be innocuous when it is "doing things behind your back" is something else entirely.

Perhaps some further clarification from somebody official to put the banning into context might end this more satisfactorily for people?

[natethomas]

I wasn't super involved with the banning, but I can take a stab at explaining it. My impression is that we're basically looking at a banning from a thousand tiny cuts. Pointing at any one thing and saying, "Here is why the ban happened," is pointless. Instead, it was two months or more of dealing with problem, after problem, after problem, each of which (with the exclusion, possibly, of the tracking without warning) might warrant a minor slap on the wrist, but from the perspective of the mods began looking more and more intentional.

I mean, a simple rundown of all the problems (from our perspective, which can be admittedly biased) goes: violated repo policy, removed repo addons that weren't originally developed by rob, changed repo addons in a way that could break other addons, convinced a wiki mod to remove a team member's access to the wiki, changed open source copyright licenses of software he didn't write, overruled the will of a mod in re-created forum threads, spammed forum threads, supported an addon that looks quite a lot like piracy, and developed tracking software that tracks users without their permission. There might be more, that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Quite frankly, his banning probably doesn't fit into a normal category, but managing to do all of that in less than two months is an unusual circumstance if ever I've seen one, and when the piracy and tracking stuff came up, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. The entire team was tired of dealing with it. The forum rules are not binding. They are designed to give users an honest shake, and we try very hard to stand by them, but at the end of the day, we are the ultimate arbiters deciding what does and does not go on in this forum. And we'd collectively decided we'd had enough.

I believe this is an unusual case, and it could be a waste of time to develop rules for the future to deal with a person who'd done at least 9 different things over an extended period of time that clash with team members and various team policies, but I know internally we're trying to clarify the rules a bit more so people can know that behavior like this can have consequences even when not all of it is perfectly written out in rule form.

[natethomas]

I just want to get the facts right about why (according to Kodi) users should not use this addon anymore, because I still do not completely understand it.

I'm not sure if this was answered, so I'll try to answer it. If it was answered, sorry for doubling up.

I think you are incorrectly perceiving the Team's opinion on this addon. As a general rule, Team Kodi never provides an opinion about what addons users should and should not use, except where we think they could be dangerous or illegal, and even then, our only stance is that we want the users to know what they are getting themselves into before using the addon.

If you want to continue using the addon, by all means, continue using it. Just try to stay educated about what is in the addons you use.

The discussion happening here is not about whether users should use the addon. It was, early on, about whether the addon should be in the repo, and later on, whether the team should provide forum support for all the addons provided in the 3rd party repo under discussion. Whether users actually use the addon or not is entirely up to them.

edit: Oh, we also sometimes highlight addons that we think are especially cool or unusual. You don't need to use those either, but I'm mentioning it for completeness' sake.

[Bloksel]

@Nate, thanks for explaining, but I am still confused (Edited post, because my english was unreadable).

Rob never had a chance to explain why the addresses were uploaded and it could be just as innocent as what the Kodi team was planning to do. I do not see the Kodi Team as evil, I rather call it "coming to conclusions to fast". It is a bit sad the Kodi Team sees itself as the victim, while they could learn from this experience and see it as a chance for improvement.

I still would like a more detailed reason without all the speculations about how evil Rob is, why users should immediately uninstall the TVTunes addon. Because if it is this bad as the Kodi Teams wants us believe it is, they should get this advice from the Kodi Team, since this addon is being promoted through their forum (by supporting it) for years. But I believe the addon isn't that harmful, since the guy maintaining the uploadserver, disabled access. So nothing is uploaded anymore. Only I am no expert. I am just a regular user. How educated can I become?

BTW: I still think you guys do great work, no doubt about that.

[bilgepump]

and it could be just as innocent as what the Kodi team was planning to do.

No, it couldn't, because it was done without disclosure, in circumstances where, had it been disclosed, it would never have happened. Getting caught out doing something you should never have done does not demand any "explanation" and any attempt to explain or justify a breach of rules and a breach of users' trust can never be retrospectively "explained". It's impermissible and, as has been explained, it is nothing LIKE what is being discussed (which, if it happens, everyone will know about and can decide whether they still want to use the software or not, that opportunity was never given)

[Bloksel]

and it could be just as innocent as what the Kodi team was planning to do.

No, it couldn't, because it was done without disclosure, in circumstances where, had it been disclosed, it would never have happened. Getting caught out doing something you should never have done does not demand any "explanation" and any attempt to explain or justify a breach of rules and a breach of users' trust can never be retrospectively "explained". It's impermissible and, as has been explained, it is nothing LIKE what is being discussed (which, if it happens, everyone will know about and can decide whether they still want to use the software or not, that opportunity was never given)

I do not agree with you and I do not wish to argue about this. We are all free to form our own opinion. But maybe you could tell me what the TVTunes addon is really doing now? Is it sending my credit card info to Nigeria?

[Karnagious]

... who'd done at least 9 different things over an extended period of time that clash with team members and various team policies

That's like saying the guy who was wrongfully accused of murder 8 times should go to jail on the ninth accusation! Because, you know, this is the ninth time over an extended period of time he had been accused of murder, eh.

Perhaps if your ban-happy colleagues hadn't trashed his threads you could have posted a warning in the thread of the addon you had concerns about. (And then, going by what has been the pattern so far, dragged their feet in removing the warning when it was explained and remedied.)

Instead, nobody seems to know the details.

If you want to talk about straws and backs of camels, consider how much hay you guys have been laying on with what some (admittedly biased) might call a slipshod, childish vendetta.

[DarrenHill]

That's like saying the guy who was wrongfully accused of murder 8 times should go to jail on the ninth accusation! Because, you know, this is the ninth time over an extended period of time he had been accused of murder, eh.

Except in this case there was no wrongful accusations, everything Nate listed is a valid strike against him, albeit more minor in some cases.

It's more like if someone who has been caught committing 8 previous offences comes up on trial for a 9th, how that track record may be taken into consideration when dealing with that latest one.

After a certain point any trust is lost and enough is enough.

[Bloksel]

Things are not always black or white. The last days I spend reading almost all posts Rob has made for the last month and I still do not believe he is an evil genius trying to declare war on the Kodi team. He is just a guy who spends a lot of his time trying to make great things for other people, just like the Kodi team. In his enthusiasm he made a lot of mistakes, because he is only doing this for fun. He is learning on the way.

I almost dare not say it, but I agree with Karnagious, that this looks like a childish vendetta.

[Karnagious]

After a certain point any trust is lost...

Funny. People have been saying that for weeks. Odd to hear someone on your side saying it for a change, though.

Rob made mistakes, but throughout he tried working with you guys. And from the start, you weren't interested. Mutagen should not have been in the repo, by your own rules. Someone on your side didn't like having your own rules quoted at them and started on a campaign to freeze him out. Along the way we saw patently absurd accusations being leveled at both him and his supporters.

And now someone (do we even know who, or are we going to have to speculate? because we are all pretty sure we know who it was) decides that they saw something which might deserve the behaviour they've been engaging in from the start. Weee! Finally!!! Here we go!! Banned! Yay! We win!!!

Seriously, who on your team thought that you guys still had enough social credit to be able to ban Rob without having a detailed explanation ready to post? Whose word are we supposed to be taking here?

Trust is lost. And along with that trust, you've lost the benefit of the doubt that you would deal with Rob fairly.

And then you banned him.

Smart.

[bilgepump]

Things are not always black or white.

In this case, they are. Code, which he wrote, was in the software. If someone else wrote it, he had no business presenting himself as the author. As author, he is responsible for its inclusion. It is completely black and white, there is no possible excuse. If it's meant to be "fun", that includes users and being spied on is by no means "funny".

[Bloksel]

Things are not always black or white.

In this case, they are. Code, which he wrote, was in the software. If someone else wrote it, he had no business presenting himself as the author. As author, he is responsible for its inclusion. It is completely black and white, there is no possible excuse. If it's meant to be "fun", that includes users and being spied on is by no means "funny".

You should have added "I ASSUME the code was added to spy on users" and that makes all the difference.

[bilgepump]

You should have added "I ASSUME the code was added to spy on users" and that makes all the difference.

No, there is no assumption - it is what it is.