[evlo]

I hope you realize that we have people on the team which actually have user design as their major, who have studied it a lot and knows what they talk about.

No i don't and i don't any fight about this. If xbmc devs think that UI experience is right and don't want to change it there is no room for discussion and as xbmc is their product not my, therefore it is theirs decision to make.
We can only agree to disagree.

Anyway there is no possibility to go from home to now playing using simple controls (ok, arrows, back) in default skin (confulence, i think), at least i din't found it.

Thanks for the keymap suggestion.

BTW about that first time users - WMC remote is most widespread remote standard and you can't use it with xbmc without problems after first time xbmc install so this would be my next suggestion

[Chris!]

anyway there is no possibility to go from home to now playing using simple controls (ok, arrows, back) in default skin (confulence, i think), at least i din't found it.

It's tab!

[marirs]

I too didn't find the "back" and "fullscreen" behavior too intuitive (for me). I have changed the global keymap for "back" from ParentDir to PreviousMenu, and override that in certain windows to ParentDir. I find that it works better than the default, which does the opposite. The intention being that the "back" button always takes you to the previous screen (where different directory levels are counted as screens). In keeping with this, "back" on FullscreenVideo toggles fullscreen.

I actually used to have "back" on the homescreen keymapped to fullscreen toggle before, but this got too cumbersome, so I gave in and ended up dedicating a button on the remote to fullscreen toggle.

Confluence is actually pretty good about having an on-screen way to go back to the fullscreen/now playing window (except from the home window), but most skins aren't designed with this in mind.

Anyways, here is the keymap I use.

[migueld]

I hope you realize that we have people on the team which actually have user design as their major, who have studied it a lot and knows what they talk about. the team strives to make xbmc appealing to a wide spectrum of users and we are constantly revising and trying to make it an extremely powerful application both for first time users but also for enthusiasts.

I've been involved in UI design for a long time and I have a degree in the field but IMHO it doesn't take credentials to figure out that the current navigation in XBMC is flawed/incomplete to say the least.

The question we should be asking is the following: does navigation in XBMC pass the family/friends test (can girlfriend, mom, dad, sister, friends etc use it without asking me all the time?). While XBMC appeals to a wide range of users, lets not forget that its spotlight is the home theater, it needs to play well in a friends/family setting.

One problem is that there are too many keys. There are 3 different back keys from a user's perspective: esc, backspace, tab. And in many cases casual users are subjected to them. Personally I consider myself a pro but I'm also annoyed by the unnecessary buttons, but that's just me. I respect others. But for casual users it's unacceptable. There should be a primary set of keys and a secondary set of keys. The primary set of keys are the bare basic keys that anyone can use to easily navigate: directionals, options and back. That's it. Everything should be reachable with those keys. Secondary keys would be shortcuts: subtitles, audio, home, playlist etc.

Having said that, the easiest solution right now is to make the "esc" key behave like the back key in the Apple remote which has gained consensus as being a decent universal back key. So pressing Esc during video playback would exit and stop video, it would not minimize and play in the background.

A more elaborate solution could be this: make the minimized video selectable. So the user can scroll through and reach the minimized video, press enter and it goes back to fullscreen. Casual users wouldn't need to know about "tab". Pro users that know about tab can still use it. Everyone wins.

Either way there should be a consistent universal back button for all remotes, not multiple ones. Navigation should be streamlined and consolidated. This has been an issue that has been lingering for a long time. Not sure there will be a solution any time soon though unfortunately.

[texaco]

It's tab!

I have used xbmc for several years now and barely use it with a keyboard (remote only). This is stll a "problem" since you can get trapped with a remote (you can navigate to "now playing" or jump to tvshows and look at the minimized box playing to get back to you movie) but for some users i have seen them get stuck in homescreen with video still playing, their solution was to stop the video, go to movies, find the movie, start playing again.


Tab is not a solution for users with remote that dont understand what a xml file is.

[Jezz_X]

migueld tab is not a back key its toggle between full screen playback and really your lucky xbmc does it at nearly every factory UI Ive seen in things like the WD Media player, Sony tv's, etc don't let you surf around while stuff is playing.

at most xbmc needs 7 buttons.
up, down, left, right, select, back, content menu
And even with dharma you can pretty much get and do anything. Eden will be even easier and more obvious because of some of the skin changes I have made of course if you use other peoples skins then thats not XBMC fault

[SpectreX]

I've been involved in UI design for a long time and I have a degree in the field but IMHO it doesn't take credentials to figure out that the current navigation in XBMC is flawed/incomplete to say the least.

The question we should be asking is the following: does navigation in XBMC pass the family/friends test (can girlfriend, mom, dad, sister, friends etc use it without asking me all the time?). While XBMC appeals to a wide range of users, lets not forget that its spotlight is the home theater, it needs to play well in a friends/family setting.

One problem is that there are too many keys. There are 3 different back keys from a user's perspective: esc, backspace, tab. And in many cases casual users are subjected to them. Personally I consider myself a pro but I'm also annoyed by the unnecessary buttons, but that's just me. I respect others. But for casual users it's unacceptable. There should be a primary set of keys and a secondary set of keys. The primary set of keys are the bare basic keys that anyone can use to easily navigate: directionals, options and back. That's it. Everything should be reachable with those keys. Secondary keys would be shortcuts: subtitles, audio, home, playlist etc.

Having said that, the easiest solution right now is to make the "esc" key behave like the back key in the Apple remote which has gained consensus as being a decent universal back key. So pressing Esc during video playback would exit and stop video, it would not minimize and play in the background.

A more elaborate solution could be this: make the minimized video selectable. So the user can scroll through and reach the minimized video, press enter and it goes back to fullscreen. Casual users wouldn't need to know about "tab". Pro users that know about tab can still use it. Everyone wins.

Either way there should be a consistent universal back button for all remotes, not multiple ones. Navigation should be streamlined and consolidated. This has been an issue that has been lingering for a long time. Not sure there will be a solution any time soon though unfortunately.

Took the words out of my mouth . A selectable video mini window would be the simplest and most effective solution, Windows 7 Media Center uses this and it works fine.

Also, the esc+back combo is another deal-breaker for newbies, the back button should be the only button you need.

And to complete your ideea, tab aisn`t a remote buttons on the MCE remote.

[SpectreX]

migueld tab is not a back key its toggle between full screen playback and really your lucky xbmc does it at nearly every factory UI Ive seen in things like the WD Media player, Sony tv's, etc don't let you surf around while stuff is playing.

at most xbmc needs 7 buttons.
up, down, left, right, select, back, content menu
And even with dharma you can pretty much get and do anything. Eden will be even easier and more obvious because of some of the skin changes I have made of course if you use other peoples skins then thats not XBMC fault

You also need esc. If you go into the video/audio settings or subtitle pluging from the OSD during playback, you can`t come back by pressing the MCE back button. You need to press the "esc" button (or the "clear" button on the MCE remote)

[migueld]

migueld tab is not a back key its toggle between full screen playback and really your lucky xbmc does it at nearly every factory UI Ive seen in things like the WD Media player, Sony tv's, etc don't let you surf around while stuff is playing.

From a user's perspective think about this case: user presses "esc", video plays in the background, now the user wants to "go back" to the video. Frak, how do I go back to the video? In a programmer's mind, tab is not a back key, but in a user's mind it is. The challenge is to have the bare minimum set of keys so a user doesn't have the burden of using extra keys.

You are right about a 7 key minimum though, I had forgotten about select.

[Hitcher]

You also need esc. If you go into the video/audio settings or subtitle pluging from the OSD during playback, you can`t come back by pressing the MCE back button. You need to press the "esc" button (or the "clear" button on the MCE remote)

I agree that whenever you have a control open BACK and ESC should function the same way and close it.

[topfs2]

I think all need to consider that XBMC cannot really be perfectly well designed from a user perspective without having control of everything the user uses, i.e. we need them to use a specific control we have designed so it fits with our GUI. This is not the case and more often than not the breakdowns in the design is coupled with the remote not being designed for xbmc (no remote is which is also a problem).

If the team sat down and actually designed a remote and enforced that behaviour to core you would see a much more user friendly application, however this is not really realistic as its floss and we do not want to close down the support to a single remote, even if it would make the experience better.

No i don't and i don't any fight about this. If xbmc devs think that UI experience is right and don't want to change it there is no room for discussion and as xbmc is their product not my, therefore it is theirs decision to make.
We can only agree to disagree.

I don't mean to sound harsh I was merely questioning your solution. XBMC GUI is far from perfect and there are many breakdowns but the overall design (from a core perspective) is very close to all other applications out there. Android uses the same design, iPhone. ATV the same, mythtv, mediaportal even windows mce uses the same design. Home is the bottom of the stack and this is so for a reason, those I mentioned being some reasons.

I don't want to fight, I put forward reasons why we have it as we have and then you are meant to retort why the design is wrong. And by that I don't mean give a suggestions how to fix but rather state breakdowns and such coupled with it. Here you seem to be mixing it a bit, i.e. the problem at hand is not if the underlaying design is wrong but rather that you have no way to get to now playing, a completely different problem which does have better ways IMO to be solved, all of them being skin dependent, i.e buttons in home which allows you to go to now playing.

Anyway there is no possibility to go from home to now playing using simple controls (ok, arrows, back) in default skin (confulence, i think), at least i din't found it.

This is the real issue and is as jezz pointed a skin dependent thing, he is working on it and it gets better by the day.

I've been involved in UI design for a long time and I have a degree in the field but IMHO it doesn't take credentials to figure out that the current navigation in XBMC is flawed/incomplete to say the least.

Its far from perfect, I have no illusions that it is perfect

As I stated however most of the problems are skin specific and not xbmc core, the design from a core perspective follows that of all other applications in existence.

The question we should be asking is the following: does navigation in XBMC pass the family/friends test (can girlfriend, mom, dad, sister, friends etc use it without asking me all the time?). While XBMC appeals to a wide range of users, lets not forget that its spotlight is the home theater, it needs to play well in a friends/family setting.

Well from all my tests the friends and family most likely doesn't even want to go out of the video when its playing, when they have started a playback they rather stop it than go back. This is what I have witness and it makes sense as that fits their goals more often than not.

Case: I want to play something else Solution: Stop playback and then find new item. Why? No reason to have it playing in the background while I find it.
Case: I want to shutdown the PC: Solution: Stop and navigate to home and press shutdown. Why? I am shutting down and I want to stop it no matter.

Having playback in the background is most of the time a very enthusiast type of feature, lets not forget that.

One problem is that there are too many keys. There are 3 different back keys from a user's perspective: esc, backspace, tab. And in many cases casual users are subjected to them. Personally I consider myself a pro but I'm also annoyed by the unnecessary buttons, but that's just me. I respect others. But for casual users it's unacceptable. There should be a primary set of keys and a secondary set of keys. The primary set of keys are the bare basic keys that anyone can use to easily navigate: directionals, options and back. That's it. Everything should be reachable with those keys. Secondary keys would be shortcuts: subtitles, audio, home, playlist etc.

This however is somewhat of a problem. I disagree with the reasoning of esc and backspace and I'd rather see esc removed, back should always take you one step back in the stack even if you are deep within a list. If you want to clear the stack and return home you should press home. This is my oppinion.

Again this problem stems from the fact that there is no remotes used to design around. The ATV remote is far to limiting for xbmc in most of the cases. The remote I usually picture as the minimal have: Up,Down,Left,Right,Select,Back,Home and ContextMenu. Very close to those of an android device. Sadly, there is no such remote and if there is its not widespread.

Having said that, the easiest solution right now is to make the "esc" key behave like the back key in the Apple remote which has gained consensus as being a decent universal back key. So pressing Esc during video playback would exit and stop video, it would not minimize and play in the background.

Personally I dislike the idea of exit and stop the video, go back != stop video IMO. I do somewhat agree though that esc on keyboard could be stop playback if in video window.

A more elaborate solution could be this: make the minimized video selectable. So the user can scroll through and reach the minimized video, press enter and it goes back to fullscreen. Casual users wouldn't need to know about "tab". Pro users that know about tab can still use it. Everyone wins.

Either way there should be a consistent universal back button for all remotes, not multiple ones. Navigation should be streamlined and consolidated. This has been an issue that has been lingering for a long time. Not sure there will be a solution any time soon though unfortunately.

This is pure skin stuff and is what jezz is working on for eden afaik. And what I refer to when I said that a user should be able to navigate to now playing from home window.

[T800]

I had the same problem when first using XBMC. I then read which button got me back the video that was playing and haven't had a problem since. If someone is using XBMC with a keyboard I tell them which button it is.

However seeing as backspace has no function on the homescreen (is this correct?) why not have go back to what is playing?

[evlo]

Took the words out of my mouth . A selectable video mini window would be the simplest and most effective solution, Windows 7 Media Center uses this and it works fine.

Also, the esc+back combo is another deal-breaker for newbies, the back button should be the only button you need.

And to complete your ideea, tab ain`t a remote buttons on the MCE remote.

+1 ... obviously i'm not so good at explaining things.

Unifying esc+back and adding preview window with currently playing movie (current fullscreen) to get back to it would move user experience to new level.

[Chris!]

However seeing as backspace has no function on the homescreen (is this correct?) why not have go back to what is playing?

Because it has uses when not in the home screen so then the button would do two different things in different areas. I think this would be confusing.

[evlo]

You also need esc. If you go into the video/audio settings or subtitle pluging from the OSD during playback, you can`t come back by pressing the MCE back button. You need to press the "esc" button (or the "clear" button on the MCE remote)

Well, it works with keyboard backspace - so my solution is to use eventghost for mce and send keyboard presses to xbmc trough it. Having native support in xbmc would be great