"the" items (artists, albums, songs?)
#31
just another note in case it wasn't clear:

i understand that what you are saying is that because i can just edit the file names, that should handle any special thing i want to do.

however, the really great thing about this feature (and i swear it was working like this in a previous build?) is that i could still have the file display name saying "the matrix", but have it sorted as "matrix". that's the problem with just doing it with the file name - i don't want it to actually display as "matrix", just to sort that way.
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#32
(gglaze @ sep. 25 2005,01:54 Wrote:and i swear it was working like this in a previous build
that is exactly why i was confused as to why the feature was taken out. i also use file view exclusively and it's good to see that you're willing to code it back in. it will definitly make browsing through movies easier.
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#33
ok, so here's the question: should it be only for "the"? i was looking at a list of english-language films last night, and noticed "a beautiful mind", which is currently before "about a boy" and "amadeus". i can't decide whether that makes more sense or not - often when looking for this film, i think i go to the b's, looking for "beautiful mind".
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#34
i just checked a few online stores for movies, and they also ignore the letter a when sorting. i think it would make more sense to ignore a aswell.
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#35
let's revisit this issue...

"a" could be added as well. what other prefixes should be ignored? maybe, its best to allow the user to define the list of prefixes lin xboxmediacenter.xml. something like this:

Quote:<myvideoignoreprefixes>the|a</myvideoignoreprefixes>
<mymusicignoreprefixes>the</mymusicignoreprefixes>

then, it can be altered for various languages:

Quote:<myvideoignoreprefixes>the|a|le|les</myvideoignoreprefixes>

i still dont think that files view should follow these rules. i think this is up to the user to alter their file names accordingly. if the user want things sorted like that in files view, then the user should name their files according. and if you want things displayed and/or behave differently then how they are named, i feel you shouldnt be using files view. as its name implies, its about "files".

but, i really dont care if its added back as long as its a seperate option in settings. i'm sure i'm not the only user who doesnt want xbmc messing with files view. i keep my files named a certain way for a reason, and xbmc should not be making any assumptions on why they are named as they are. do any operating systems do this? absolutely not.

of course, this will mean the settings screen will likely need to be reorganized a bit, as we're running out of space. both music and video should probably have a "library" screen in settings, in addition to "files". (i start on this while we continue discussing this.)

thoughts, ideas, or comments?



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#36
why would the options screen need to change from what it currently has? i.e. one simple option - that seems to do it.

regarding the files view - i'll say this again: i would like "the matrix" sorted in the m's, but i don't want it do display as "matrix" or "matrix, the" - i want it to display as "the matrix". i don't see how your philosophy on files view can possibly cater to this - and i'm clearly not the only one who thinks like this.

if there is already an option available for this, i can't see what the problem is. if you don't want it to apply, turn it off. wouldn't it be the same for title view?
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#37
Rainbow 
(kraqh3d @ sep. 25 2005,17:48 Wrote:i really dont care if its added back as long as its a seperate option in settings.
i like to second that, if implemented please make it a seperate option, thanks in advance.

(gglaze @ sep. 25 2005,21:40 Wrote:if there is already an option available for this, i can't see what the problem is. if you don't want it to apply, turn it off. wouldn't it be the same for title view?
no it should be a seperate option for "files", becuase i "title" once might want to sort it with 'the' removed but in "files" view it should be the real file-name.
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#38
ok, but could we make that option "optional"?
Wink

but seriously, i think you guys have some strange idea about what the file view is about. you seem to think it is meant to mirror my files or something. most of us who use file view do so because (1) we don't have internet connection; or (2) titles view doesn't really give us exactly what we want, and it is too much trouble to edit it manually.

i would actually propose that we add a new view option: "files-clean" or something like that - because we are essentially talking about two different usage patterns. for you guys who normally use titles view and occasionally switch to files view, it makes sense that the view options for files view should be different, and maybe much more strictly representing what you have in your file system.

but for the rest of us, for whom files view is our primary view, we could care less whether we see an exact representation of the file system - we just want to see the most user-friendly view of files possible. that's why we've implemented all these other nifty features, like stacking, file name cleaning, etc.

i personally don't care if it's one option or two, but i think this is going the direction of being highly unintuitive for less-techie users - the average newbie user, who hasn't discovered the amazing powers of the titles view, is going to be very confused about why the option they selected doesn't work when they haven't realized the difference between files and titles view.

it's like saying, "ok, let's have 2 options for subtitles - one for vobs, and another for divx!" for some users, that might actually make sense, but i don't think the majority of users would feel that way.
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#39
files view is a view of your *files*, no? therefore i think that how you have your files names should have priority. if you want them displayed in a particular way, you should rename them. i feel very strongly about this.

gamester and i seem to be on the same page. all i'm saying is that files and library should have unique options which enable the same feature so i can have it enabled in library, and disabled in files. i actually use the two views differently. i cant be the only one.

and i really dont see how this makes it "less" intuitive. there will be two seperate config sections - files, and library. a few options should already be in this missing library section.

and you mention the stacking and cleaning functions. these two options produce more questions than anything else. i dont understand why so many users think that xbmc should do the work. why cant they take a few minutes and clean their filenames?

but, i'm getting off-track now... let's put the number of options aside. if this becomes too much of a discussion point, it can be made a hidden option that needs to be set manually in settings.xml.

i think the more important question is how to extend this existing feature. today, it only works for the english "the". how should it be made configurable?
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#40
my opinion is that we should use a regexp expression, or if we want to be very fancy, a list of regexp expressions. the code is already there and works well for stacking - so it could easily be extended to work for sorting too. that would also allow us to go with english for the default config, and then foreign languages could be added later. this is the most flexible way, and would handle anything we might not anticipate that could come up later.

what i want to make clear, at least for the version of this functionality that we enable on files view, is that what i'm expecting here is something that modifies only the sort order, and not the actual names that are displayed. so again, i expect to see "the matrix", not "matrix, the" - but i want it displayed with the m's. a simple "([the ])..." regexp would take care of this case.
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#41
understood. it will not change the label of the item, just remove prefixes for sorting purposes.

yes, while i agree that a regexp would work, i think its unnecessary complexity. a simple pipe seperated string would suffice. it shouldnt need to do any fancy transformations, just remove certain starting words. i had an idea on how this would work and would be more than happy to share it with you.

btw, ([the ]) would not do what you wanted. the correct regexp is ^(the ).

your original regexp would potentially remove all t's, h's, e's and spaces. see what i mean about complexity? do we want to give users the ability to arbitrarily remove the second character with ^.(.) ?

edit... fixed some typos... its hard to type this stuff while im *supposed* to be working Smile



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#42
ha, tell me about it!

just don't tell my boss...

ok, sorry, i should have said "pseudo-regexp", obviously wasn't going for accuracy. yeah i agree that it is more complex, but...

isn't it exactly the same issue we have in other places, i.e. stacking? i was on vacation for a few weeks while the stacking was changed to regexp, but when i came back, after i checked it out and started using it, i liked it. before that, stacking was just like what you are talking about - a pipe-delimited list of possible suffixes.

the main reason that regexp had to be introduced for stacking was due to the wide variety of file names that come in from various "sources" out there. i know your philosophy is that users should be responsible for renaming all of their files (and personally, i do) - but introducing the regexp definitely opened the doors to many more users to be able to use stacking without having to mess around with understanding how it works under the covers.

given that we are now essentially talking about a natural language problem, the potential for complexity seems even larger - before it was just the limited variety of file-naming formats for volume numbers - now we are talking about something that may need to be flexible enough to handle many complex natural language scenarios that we can't possibly imagine.

even though it introduced some problems initially, i think the strategy we've taken with stacking is working well now - basically, establish a good base set of regexp expressions that suit the needs of most users, and make sure those work well for most files. then on the exceptional cases, offer assistance.

again, agreed that this leads to more complexity, and not quite convinced myself one way or another. but i'm pretty sure that if we don't use regexp now, we'll regret it later.
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#43
this is a really good discussion about how to handle file names and i would like to make a suggestion.  i would like there to be a sortname field in the mymovie db.  the reasoning for this is that i like to have sequels displayed in order (rocky i, rocky ii, etc), but movies like lord of the rings gives problems since the movies aren't numbered and sorting alphabetically leaves them in the wrong order.  this would also give free reign to any kind of sorting a user would want (including ignoring "the", "a", "an", or whatever).

maybe the best solution would be to use a settings option (on/off) along with the regexp or pipes for files view only.  then any changes that would be desired for title view users could be done by simply editing the sortname field in the db.  this would minimize the number of options for the user and provide more flexibility to those who use title view.

just my $0.02



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#44
gglaze,
it was necessary for stacking because it was the only way to describe where the volume descriptor was located. in this case, you should only be truncating characters from the front of a string (aka prefixes). what more do you need to do?

rockdawg,
this is a little different thing but yes this has brought up before, and it it will be added to the video database. there are some other changes to the video database coming soon so i want to bundle them all together. the "sortname" will be a hidden column in the database that advanced users will be able to take advantage of.
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#45
just curious.  why have sortname be hidden and how advanced will a user need to be?

any word on what some of the other changes will be, or should i just wait and see?

edit: i almost forgot... thanks a ton for adding the sortname field! now, if we could just get a seperate db for tv shows all would be right with the world. Wink



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