Solved Issue - 10-bit h264 (Hi10) Support?

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rd1979 Offline
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Post: #631
(2013-02-11 21:19)Shine Wrote:  [rant mode]
Unfortunately, they won't. It's history repeating - they are LOOKING for codecs that are incompatible with anything the average watcher is using (and/or require more CPU power to decode than any mainstream box currently has), in order to arrogantly tell everyone to "get a better PC" and "don't complain, it's free".

Just wait for the first, completely broken alpha versions of h.265 encoders. Bet on it, anime encoders will be the first idiots to start using those.
[/rant mode] :-)

Well, here's the thing. The anime encoders just want the next best thing. Its not about finding whats the least compatible at all. The whole 10-bit encoding is just f*cking stupid anyway, point blank. Especially with H.265 right around the corner. As an anime watcher, I understand the PQ benefits when it comes to banding and such, but not the file size 'advantage', especially in the early days, when the files were FAR larger anyway. It's just a stupid stop gap that everyone is going to think back and laugh at how stupid it was to even use it. The anime encoders are going to flock to H.265 the same way they did H.264 and MKV. ie, YEARS before anything/anyone else. The only difference is, while it'll be the same pattern as H.264, it'll likely be on a slightly more accelerated schedule. You'll see HW acceleration far sooner, maybe even in the next round of Nvidia/AMD cards in 2014, as this years' stuff is all rehashes.

Hell, pirate movie encoders still use XviD/MP3 for SD, they only recently went to MP4 for SD TV shows, and there was such whiny complaining from the people who download. That's why the XviD and MP4 TV encodes exist side by side. It's a wonder they didn't all go MP4/MKV for everything. So there's NO WAY they will go to 10-bit, they can't even get their ducks in a row.
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jpsdr Offline
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Post: #632
I don't think movie will go to 10-bit because there is no real benefit on it. Unfortunately, anime have some "exceptions" that work for them, and result in encode breaking HW compatibility.
- Level, or more precisely Ref frames. In standard footage, it's very rare to really have more than 4 ref frames, so encoding with more than 4 ref frame is very unlikely to help, so level 4.1 with max ref frames of 4 is good. Anime of course are an exception, with very often of "long" some static scene, so encoding with 16 ref frame have a true benefit, which result on smaller file or better quality for the same size. HW compatibility is already broken with a lot of encode on level 5.0 or with more than 4 ref frames (often 16) [Note : it's for 1080p].
- 10-bit. Anime, in the case of recent digital production (=> absolutely NO noise !), encoding in 10-bit seems also to have some benefit, less banding and smaller file or better quality. Have any noise or not anime (only anime, not even CG), you loose these benefits.

I gave up a long time ago to watch anime on HW players because of subtitles, none are able to handle all the SSA features used properly and to have the necessary timing accuracy to display them properly. Before even encoders break HW compatibility with either level>4.1 or 10-bit.
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Bullet Offline
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Post: #633
can some one post the file from earlier. the link is broken Sad
file XBMCSetup-20130126-e9a80f3-dx.rar
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DeathScyther Offline
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Post: #634
I did a quick test-run with youtube's "Lupe_4k" mp4 file: dxva2 off, jpsdr's patch on, 18.7 Mbps, 4096*2304, 23.976 fps, avc high@L5.1, 1 ref frames, 48 Khz, 2 channels aac: regular playback, cpu peaked at 98% averaging 60-80%, no frame dropped for core 2 quad 2.66 GHz & radeon 5670.

Ran a different batch with official frodo on my budget netbook to assess the competition's (i.e. one of the forks) state-of-the-art performance and the results are in...

Even on my 'old' and most-humble 11.6" 'the-teeny-weeny-vaio-netbook-that-could' AMD E-350 dual-core 1.6 GHz APU Discrete Radeon 6310 all of the 1080p AC3/DTS/FLAC videos played back flawlessly with dxva2 enabled, a breeze through only 2 GB RAM on Win7x86, dual-screening to extended output via high-speed hdmi full hd monitor, vertical sync always enabled, blank other displays on, ac3/dts passthru disabled, hdmi audio.

Tried the same stunt with mediaportal 1.3.0 rc with recommended lav filters, default evr and vmr9... it was not the same. Initial video lagging, dropped frames and inability to play vc-1 hdwmv out-of-box; the apu was worthless, no gpu cores were used over cpu (amd monitor 1.0.0.9).

The vc-1 hdwmv 'exotic' file was an animation of 3.99 GB framed @ 1920x1080 23.976 fps 8 248 Kbps VC-1 WMV3 MP@HL 6 channels 48 Khz 24 bits 255 Kbps WMA pro that xbmc automagically excelled to render, the slowpoke cpu barely averaging 26% and seldom peaking at 51%, the apu switched cores to 60% of gpu and they worked their magic through 492 MHz, thus certifying this particular budget netbook as one (almost) perfect htpc (to everything dxva compliant).

On the other hand, it is known that Hi10P files play slowly on most machines but playback on this particular netbook almost comes to a halt.

meme: http://memegenerator.net/instance/349426...map=%5B%5D
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jpsdr Offline
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Post: #635
As there is somes who asked it, i've a new build with MT make from master branch, link is here.

Take it quick, i'll leave it here only a few days.
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DeathScyther Offline
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Post: #636
@ jpsdr: much obliged.

Tested 20130215-15db9a8-dx patch with coalgirl's hyouka ep. 6 initial 3 minutes OP (only place where dxva skips): cpu peaked 76%, averaging 30-60%, bitrate peaked 54 MB/s, no frame dropped.

file: 1.68 gb mkv, 1920*1080, 23.976 fps, avc high@L5.1, 16 ref frames, 48 KHz, 16 bits, 2 channels, flac.

Lupe_4k: peaked 100.0%, average 60-90%, no dropped frames.

xbmc's quite awesome... a tiny change in keyboard.xml and it got me the CodecInfo osd to an unassigned button in my cheapo speedlink sl-6399 mce remote that I've been using for years.
(This post was last modified: 2013-02-16 16:04 by DeathScyther.)
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davilla Offline
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Post: #637
Christ, high@L5.1, 16 ref frames. Idiots, that is way out of h264 spec. When will these tools learn to quit trying to reinvent the wheel, the specs are there for a reason and much, much better qualified persons have determined why.


MediaInfo : http://mediainfo.sourceforge.net/
Do not e-mail XBMC-Team members directly asking for support. Read/follow the forum rules.
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magao Offline
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Post: #638
Yeah, but unless we want to reencode everything ourselves (which I was doing until XBMC got 10-bit support) it's what we need to deal with. Personally I did a lot of testing on anime to find the best tradeoff between speed of re-encoding and file size, and found out that nearly all frames used <=3 ref frames and nearly all runs of b-frames were <=5 long, even when I configured it to allow up to 16 for each (using Handbrake - x264).

Probably also explains why most stuff encoded at high@L5.1 with 16 ref frames will play back with only minor glitches - so long as there isn't an explicit check that it's within specific parameters preventing playback at all.
(This post was last modified: 2013-02-16 23:35 by magao.)
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DeathScyther Offline
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Post: #639
Some videos CodecInfo tech specs are too long to fit on screen and it goes beyond reading possibilities, namely 'drop frame' count is placed outside and such.

Is there an easy log mode to the typical noob or a way to break info to the next line?
(This post was last modified: 2013-02-16 21:15 by DeathScyther.)
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momaku Offline
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Post: #640
(2013-02-16 21:14)DeathScyther Wrote:  Some videos CodecInfo tech specs are too long to fit on screen and it goes beyond reading possibilities, namely 'drop frame' count is placed outside and such.

Is there an easy log mode to the typical noob or a way to break info to the next line?

I use mediainfo to know the specs of the multimedia files, it supports different formats: text, html, mpeg-7, ...
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DeathScyther Offline
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Post: #641
I found out on the wiki how to log to 5 levels in debugging mode, I'll give it a try. It would be nice if it could fit on the screen though.
Thx momaku, mediainfo is useful as well. It'm just curious to know how many drops to a specific file on different machines.
(This post was last modified: 2013-02-16 22:00 by DeathScyther.)
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jpsdr Offline
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Post: #642
(2013-02-16 16:39)davilla Wrote:  Christ, high@L5.1, 16 ref frames. Idiots, that is way out of h264 spec.

Are you sure ? I've read a long time ago the spec from level part, and in level 4.1, you have only 4 ref frame at 1080p (but it means you can have 8 ref frame at 720p, and 16 with SD resolution, without breaking h264 specs), but it will not surprise me, that at level 5.1, you can go up to 16 ref frame.
I have in this specific case, other opinion. Anime is the exception which realy benefit of having more than 4 ref frame, and where using 16 ref frame is not a useless thing. So, quite to break HW compatibility, you have to go all the way, and do 10bit@L5.1, using 16 ref frame, at least, it's logical. I found stupid 10bit@L4.0 with 3 ref frame...

I had a pdf with some of the h264 spec, but i don't remember where i've put it on my PC...

Edit : I've found h264 spec.
For level 4.1, MaxDpbMbs is 32768. 1920/16=240 1080/16=67.5 -> 68
32768/(68x120)=4.01 -> 4 ref frame max.
For level 5.1, MaxDpbMbs is 184320.
184320/(68x120)=22,6 -> 22 ref frame max. 16 is lowel than max value possible with 5.1 level, so, no, it's absolutely not out of h264 spec. Now, if i'm wrong, or you have others informations, explain it.
(From T-REC-H.264-201201 document, p292).

Edit2 : A little mistake i'll correct : 16 is the maximum number of ref frame possible, as spec specify min(calculation,16). So, for 5.1 -> min(22,16) -> 16. So, 16 is not lower than max possible at 5.1, it's max possible at all levels.
(This post was last modified: 2013-03-10 12:23 by jpsdr.)
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DeathScyther Offline
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Post: #643
The Fellowship of the 10-bit:

one profile to screw them all,
one profile to blind them,
one profile to wring them all,
and in the artifactness bind them.
(This post was last modified: 2013-02-18 17:19 by DeathScyther.)
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momaku Offline
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Post: #644
I finally built a HTPC to play the Hi10. The components are:

- Thermaltake Element Q case
- 8 GB RAM 1333 Mhz
- HD Seagate 1TB SATA3
- Intel Celeron G1610T
- Asus GeForce GT620-DCSL-2GD3 (the only passive I found with the right size to this case)

I tested with anime in 720p (Another) and 1080p (Fate Zero) without problem, with Ubuntu XBMC (it has Lubuntu 12.10) and Openelec (it has the patch).

The only problem I have actually it is to pass the sound to the receiver (Yamaha RV-1900) through the NVIDIA HDMI.
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puntloos Offline
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Post: #645
(2013-03-08 17:51)momaku Wrote:  I finally built a HTPC to play the Hi10. The components are:

- Thermaltake Element Q case
- 8 GB RAM 1333 Mhz
- HD Seagate 1TB SATA3
- Intel Celeron G1610T
- Asus GeForce GT620-DCSL-2GD3 (the only passive I found with the right size to this case)

I tested with anime in 720p (Another) and 1080p (Fate Zero) without problem, with Ubuntu XBMC (it has Lubuntu 12.10) and Openelec (it has the patch).

The only problem I have actually it is to pass the sound to the receiver (Yamaha RV-1900) through the NVIDIA HDMI.

Nice one. Can you list the performance stats? By this I mean: How much CPU was used, how much RAM was used?

System: OpenElec XBMC Frodo Beta AudioEngine-ION2 running on Zotac ZBox ID80 - Atom D2700 + Geforce 520M.
Video: Panasonic AE3000 Projector / Samsung 46" LCD
Audio: Quad 989 on Bel Canto Evo4 through Bel Canto DAC3 w/ Onkyo TX-SR705 Decoding Audio driving Mission 703 Rears
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