Solved Issue - 10-bit h264 (Hi10) Support?

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boingman Offline
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Post: #1
This is turning out to be a new trend in the encoding "business" and I am wondering if there'll be any support for it in XBMC 11.0 (Eden)?

EDIT 2012-01-10:

XBMC hi10 Wiki
http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Hi10P_playback
(This post was last modified: 2013-02-05 11:23 by zag.)
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supra2jzgte Offline
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Post: #2
What titles have you found out there that use this type of encoding? Must do some testing.
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boingman Offline
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Post: #3
Anime stuff, for example by m33w-fansubs, Doki Fansubs or Coalgirls who released some files. Check out their homepages to find them.
The Hi10 files are playing on a normal media player/XBMC, but since they're not properly supported yet, there are a lot of artifacts.
(This post was last modified: 2011-07-24 13:37 by boingman.)
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voochi Offline
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Post: #4
I don't think it could be described as a 'trend', it is just anime encoders and they have never had any consideration for hardware/software compatibility anyway.

Scene rules are very slow to change so 99% of relevant H.264 content will be HP@L4.1 for the forseeable future.
(This post was last modified: 2011-07-24 16:49 by voochi.)
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jwcalla Offline
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Post: #5
10-bit h264 decoding support was merged into FFmpeg on April 14 and into libav on May 12. So whichever of the two projects they decide to base their player on, this functionality should be available in the next XBMC release.

However, I hope this isn't a trend in video encoding because it's incompatible with DXVA / VAAPI / VDPAU playback.
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CSB! Offline
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Post: #6
Slightly off topic:

I was intrigued, so I tried to read about this online, but couldn't find any technical explanation for why it offers better quality for a given bitrate (for animated clips)

Anyone have a link?
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jwcalla Offline
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Post: #7
CSB! Wrote:Slightly off topic:

I was intrigued, so I tried to read about this online, but couldn't find any technical explanation for why it offers better quality for a given bitrate (for animated clips)

Anyone have a link?

This might be a start:

http://figmentos.iblogger.org/10bit-encoding/
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[vEX] Offline
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Post: #8
CSB! Wrote:Slightly off topic:

I was intrigued, so I tried to read about this online, but couldn't find any technical explanation for why it offers better quality for a given bitrate (for animated clips)

Anyone have a link?

You might want to read these:
http://x264.nl/x264/10bit_01-ateme_pierr...10-bit.pdf
http://x264.nl/x264/10bit_02-ateme-why_d...dwidth.pdf
http://x264.nl/x264/10bit_03-422_10_bit_...uality.pdf

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hikaricore Offline
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Post: #9
voochi Wrote:I don't think it could be described as a 'trend', it is just anime encoders and they have never had any consideration for hardware/software compatibility anyway.

Fansubbers and encoders have their own "scene" and standards to which they adhere fairly well. Don't brush them off simply because they don't release shit like The Office and Jersey Shore. Tongue Most groups are now starting to move toward 10bit (or atleast experiment with it) as the content they are encoding becomes available in forms that take advantage of this encoding. It may not seem like it now, but give it a year and I guarantee you more than half of the larger groups will be doing it. With animation especially this manner of encoding presents some very impressive results and lesses the amount of banding seen in gradients. Not to mention often cutting the file size by half or more.

voochi Wrote:Scene rules are very slow to change so 99% of relevant H.264 content will be HP@L4.1 for the forseeable future.

As for your ideas about scene rules... they just recently changed (http://scenerules.irc.gs/t.html?id=2011_TV_X264.nfo) and while I see no mention of 10bit as of yet, unless of course they are calling it something else, you shouldn't assume that these rules never ever change because for tv releases they do quite frequently. Oh and "99% of relevant" content? I'd love to know which hole you're pulling that figure out of...

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(This post was last modified: 2011-07-31 01:08 by hikaricore.)
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ZERO <ibis> Offline
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Post: #10
Is there any more word on support for this in the future. It appears that more players are starting to pick this up and it looks like fan sub groups will begin to make full releases in it starting in the fall. In addition some groups are already redoing all BluRay content in 10-bit.

I can also say that for those of us that want to digitize our blurays for easy playback the new 10-bit encoding offers a way to dramatically reduce file size while improving quality.
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jwcalla Offline
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Post: #11
ZERO &lt;ibis&gt; Wrote:Is there any more word on support for this in the future. It appears that more players are starting to pick this up and it looks like fan sub groups will begin to make full releases in it starting in the fall. In addition some groups are already redoing all BluRay content in 10-bit.

I can also say that for those of us that want to digitize our blurays for easy playback the new 10-bit encoding offers a way to dramatically reduce file size while improving quality.

It's already supported in ffmpeg. Unless they intend on going through the trouble of pulling the changes out, it'll be in XBMC 11.0.

It doesn't work with video acceleration however, so low-end boxes and HTPCs are screwed.

Life... she is full of compromises.
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CharredChar Offline
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Post: #12
I have been doing some reading on hi10p since these anime distributors are all running towards it head on, not caring how anyone else feels on the situation.
The one thing I am really wondering about, is it even possible to have hardware acceleration of 10-bit encodes on future codecs with current hardware? I am just thinking of all of these people with HTPCs built from laptops, netbooks, and ion based boards being SOL.
I do see a huge benefit for 10-bit encoding, moreso for us who backup our movies onto NAS boxes for their network. Allowing more movies with the same space, saving the need to buy more hard drives and saving money in the long run.
As I said, these encoders dont really care about anyone else though. One comment I came across was "thats what you people get for buying such devices" referring to someone using a WD box.
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jwcalla Offline
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Post: #13
CharredChar Wrote:The one thing I am really wondering about, is it even possible to have hardware acceleration of 10-bit encodes on future codecs with current hardware?

I put in a question on the nvidia forums trying to get an answer to that. From what I've read, it doesn't seem to be a deficiency in the video acceleration libraries / codecs, but is something that is dependent on the profiles in the hardware itself. Maybe a firmware update could do some magic -- yet I couldn't imagine doing a firmware update for a GPU -- but more than likely there's nothing that can be done except to buy new hardware, if Hi10p decoding hardware ever becomes available for the consumer market. (Which seems a bit unlikely for the near future because manufacturers don't see widespread adoption of 10-bit color display devices yet, which is what this is really intended for.)

Quote:As I said, these encoders dont really care about anyone else though. One comment I came across was "thats what you people get for buying such devices" referring to someone using a WD box.

Yes... they're crazy. Bordering on insane.

The benefits of smaller file sizes are nice... but the cost of losing video acceleration isn't worth it IMO. Hard drives are cheap and easy to come by. The changes to video quality, while apparent in some cases, are only really "meh". It'd be a good idea if it didn't force EVERYBODY onto CPU-based (software) decoding. Meanwhile the entire industry is trying to move away from that idea with APUs, SoC, etc...

I tried to carry the banner on the Doki forums but people just didn't get it. As long as it played okay on their 720p laptops, they didn't understand the problem.
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hikaricore Offline
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Post: #14
Some of them are fairly pigheaded about it *cough* Commie *cough*, but others such as Doki actually bothered to ask what their supporters thought. The thing to keep in mind is that no one is forcing anything on you, you have the option of simply not downloading their releases. Most shows are oversubbed anyway (done by multiple groups) or can be watched shortly after release on streaming sites like ANN and CR. None the less the stubbornness of a few encoders has made this issue way more overblown than it needs to be, hint those are the ones saying things like "DURRR JUST USE TEH NEW CODEC PACK", just try and keep in mind they are the exception and not the rule thus far. It's going to be a rough transition no matter what, but throwing accusations back and forth isn't going to benefit anyone.

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CharredChar Offline
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Post: #15
That is exactly why I was searching around about the hardware support in the issue, if it could even be done. If it was purely a codec support issue then it wouldnt really be a big deal as in time it would be solved, much like XBMC using DXVA on Windows. But considering its the hardware lacking it becomes a much larger problem. Not just because it would take a little time for chip makers to add the features, but they would have to see a real benefit in even taking their time to do so before they even thought about implementing it. And as jwcalla said, they wont bother until displays are up to the challenge. And I dont see that happening anytime soon, not until broadcasters start moving to 10-bit.

A plus to all of this is that it is already in ffmpeg and will be in the next XBMC, so you WILL be able to view hi10p videos. Just make sure your next XBMC machine has a CPU capable of doing so... One thing this has taught me is my next box will most likely be a pretty decent CPU, if anything just to be a fallback when GPU acceleration fails.
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