[arcooke]

I'm really curious about this. What exactly would it take to get solid Netflix support into XBMC? Why can't we integrate it properly? Does it have to do with licensing? A lack of development tools? What is holding it back? Other companies and device manufacturers are able to support it.. why can't we?

A lot of questions, I know. I'm just really puzzled as to why it seems so difficult to get anything done about proper Netflix support in XBMC. I'm not complaining, I understand there's something holding it back.. I just don't know what or why.

To the best of my understanding, right now most people are focusing on the fact that Silverlight can't very well be controlled through XBMC. But that seems like an issue stemming from something deeper.. like why we can't decode/render the video stream and handle all the net code and authentication ourselves (INSTEAD of it being done through Silverlight).

Anyone with a better knowledge of this stuff able to offer some insight?

Thanks

[zepfan]

I think (and may be wrong) since silverlight doesn't work on Linux, and therefore won't work on Xbmc Live, we won't see built in support until that changes.

[Kirky99]

I think it's a little deepr than that... More likely stock price and shareholders...

Most of those appliances are running Linux, so it's possible, but not probable until there's money to be made for the shareholders.

[zepfan]

I think it's a little deepr than that... More likely stock price and shareholders...

Most of those appliances are running Linux, so it's possible, but not probable until there's money to be made for the shareholders.

I don't think that's it. Those are embedded Linux, and are much different. Netflix keeps saying they are adding Linux support, but it's a very low priority.

By adding more devices, you're going to add money to stocks/shareholders. I don't really get what you're saying.

[gabbott]

I think (and may be wrong) since silverlight doesn't work on Linux, and therefore won't work on Xbmc Live, we won't see built in support until that changes.

I dont think silverlight is a requirement for netflix to work, look at boxee which has a native netflix client that works fine. I'm thinking this has more to do with licensing.

[zepfan]

I dont think silverlight is a requirement for netflix to work, look at boxee which has a native netflix client that works fine. I'm thinking this has more to do with licensing.

Again only the embedded boxee has Netflix, not the one you download.

Why would Netflix care about how things are accessed, so long as its protected?

[iR0NBiLL]

C'mon now fellas... do you honestly think it's that hard for seasoned programmers to bring Silverlight to linux? A Novell and Microsoft collaborated project already brought Silverlight to linux in the form of Moonlight, the open-source silverlight software for linux put out 2 years ago. Engineering is not the problem... demand for Netflix on Linux either doesn't merit a port of Netflix to Linux in Netflix's eyes to invest the time to make it work or there are major security concerns with Linux that Netflix isn't sharing. They pretty much insisted on a security sandbox from Team Boxee before they would go to their platform to prevent people from developing apps that yank Netflix materials for free... it's all about control or lack thereof I think since there are enough linux users to choke a penguin.

iRoNBiLL

[zepfan]

I'd imagine that (DRM) control is the biggest problem. I know the devs of Netflix have been quoted as saying they want Linux support, since they use it themselves.

Also Microsoft has said they will never support silverlight on Linux, so that's a major hurdle.

[arcooke]

Ok let's back up here. Everyone is talking about how Silverlight doesn't work on Linux.. but that only seems to be an issue on the surface.

My original question has more to do with this: Device makers (TVs, Blu-Ray Players, Boxee, Roku, etc) do not need Silverlight in order to operate Netflix. They were presumably given, or purchased, or licensed, or something, access to development tools/APIs/whatever allowing them implement Netflix on their devices. Without the use of Silverlight. They can use Netflix on whatever platform/hardware their device is based on.

Now my question is, why can't we have this too? Is it just a matter of applying for a license? Has anyone ever actually tried to contact Netflix about tools we can use to support this from directly within XBMC?

[ckergald]

I can tell you the WDTV live and the WDTV live plus are nearly identical, almost the exact same hardware but the live + has netflix support. attempts to load the live + firmware onto the live do not work, and I belive the custom firmware developers mentioned there was a special security chip in the hardware that allows the netflix feature.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=179000

[Jezz_X]

Its all about money it always is and for them to make money they need to keep it secure xbmc is way to open source and easily modable for netflix to consider us a secure avenue for their media. And when it comes down to it, its not just netflix its mostly the people they get their content from trying to maintain control over their Intellectual property.

You mention boxee that is xbmc based well doesn't only the boxee box itself have netflix ? the actual software download doesn't ( I may be wrong) but this is also the reason why you can't install xbmc on a boxee box because they locked it all up

And back to Money Boxee and other companies pay Netflix a big arse licencing fee to be able to have it and then they have to promise and make sure its secure before they can release a version with it. hence why boxee box update with it took so long to come out and kept getting delayed because netflix were not happy

[waldo22]

I bet when binary add-ons come along someone could rip the Netflix implementation out of the ATV2 or the WDTV Live Plus, reverse engineer it, and make an add-on out of it, hosted on some server in Nauru or the Cayman Islands.

Not that I would ever do this... but I honestly don't have any moral problem with this at all - as long as the add-on makes sure that whoever is using it is a paying subscriber to Netflix streaming service, why should we feel guilty about it?

Actually, if the add-on could be a closed-source binary, there's really no reason I couldn't set up an LLC, license it, and release it as an XBMC add-on.

-Wes

[natethomas]

The correct answer is DRM. Because Netflix requires an encrypted stream, the keys to unlock the stream must also be encrypted. Through the miracle of GPL2 (and not GPL3), it is possible to link to protected binaries that can play Netflix, without tainting (i.e. open sourcing) the code.

In theory, this means that, if and when XBMC can play with binary addons, we could theoretically having a working copy of Netflix across platforms. Of course, that's only in theory. I honestly have no idea if Netflix and company would be alright with that or not.

Until binary addons (or until XBMC can link with some form of a proprietary player that bypasses the rest of the GPLed software, which may be how the boxee box does it and which may be one of the big reasons why it's not kosher to install XBMC onto the box), there's no way to handle DRM material that wouldn't make the keys for messing around with that material immediately available to anybody, through the terms of the GPL.

Long story short, tools exist that could make XBMC play nice with the DRM streaming services, but, at least for XBMC, those tools are not ready for prime time.

[arcooke]

The correct answer is DRM. Because Netflix requires an encrypted stream, the keys to unlock the stream must also be encrypted. Through the miracle of GPL2 (and not GPL3), it is possible to link to protected binaries that can play Netflix, without tainting (i.e. open sourcing) the code.

In theory, this means that, if and when XBMC can play with binary addons, we could theoretically having a working copy of Netflix across platforms. Of course, that's only in theory. I honestly have no idea if Netflix and company would be alright with that or not.

Until binary addons (or until XBMC can link with some form of a proprietary player that bypasses the rest of the GPLed software, which may be how the boxee box does it and which may be one of the big reasons why it's not kosher to install XBMC onto the box), there's no way to handle DRM material that wouldn't make the keys for messing around with that material immediately available to anybody, through the terms of the GPL.

Long story short, tools exist that could make XBMC play nice with the DRM streaming services, but, at least for XBMC, those tools are not ready for prime time.

Thanks, I was hoping you'd reply. If nothing else, I suppose that is at least a glimmer of hope. I didn't think Netflix would need any kind of encryption key on the client side, I assumed all of the security and authentication happened on the back end. In other words .. request stream without a valid account, Netflix refuses to send data stream. Pass valid credentials over, Netflix OKs it and delivers the content. But I guess I understand why they do it the way you describe.. so people can't rip/record the video streams and save them.

[aptalca]

Thanks, I was hoping you'd reply. If nothing else, I suppose that is at least a glimmer of hope. I didn't think Netflix would need any kind of encryption key on the client side, I assumed all of the security and authentication happened on the back end. In other words .. request stream without a valid account, Netflix refuses to send data stream. Pass valid credentials over, Netflix OKs it and delivers the content. But I guess I understand why they do it the way you describe.. so people can't rip/record the video streams and save them.

Yep, the security that xbmc is lacking is the one needed to prevent someone from ripping the content.

That is pretty much required by the contracts Netflix makes with content providers. Content providers want to be able to track how many times their content was accessed. If you record a Netflix movie onto your device and watch the recording a million times, content provider has no idea. But if you stream it from Netflix a million times, then the content provider can negotiate a better contract next time due to increased demand.

That is the same exact reason why Android movies do not play on rooted devices. Contracts simply don't allow it.