FPS/HZ Smoothness

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cami Online
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Post: #1
Hey all.

I've been having the "problem" for a while now. It's more an annoyance than anything.

Basically I have 2 setups with XBMC. I'm more concerned about the main living room one.

With the main one, which is connected to a 40" Sony TV, sometimes one 24fps, 25fps or 30fps content, there's slight judder on movements, especially when the camera is panning. A few times I've watched 50FPS/60FPS versions of the same types of programs and the difference is amazing. The higher FPS just looks phenomenal and ultra smooth. I'd take this difference over higher resolutions any day, even though the videos I'm comparing are both usually 720p.

The 2nd set up which uses a 23" monitor as a display struggles with the higher FPS content. It's basically unwatchable. And the judder I mentioned isn't as noticeable on the lower FPS videos. This 2nd machine can't play 1080p either as the GPU is pathetic and it can't use the hardware acceleration.

So basically my question is how do I make the 24fps, 25fps or 30fps stuff look better on the TV? I've tried the "adjust refresh rate to match display" option and changed the "video clock", "audio clock" options next to it but really I've not noticed much difference with it except my TV goes black for a sec while it changes to 24p and occasionally stuff is out of sync.

Any suggestions on how I can improve my setup? If any details are needed, let me know.
(This post was last modified: 2012-03-23 09:44 by cami.)
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kricker Offline
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Post: #2
The settings you need to use in video\playback are influenced by the GPUs you have in the system and the TV you are connected to. There are quite a few threads about these issues for almost all the GPUs including the Intel onboard GPUs. There is also an advanced setting that is used to help with setting the proper refresh rate when using the adjust display refresh rate option as sometimes it isn't set properly.

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(This post was last modified: 2012-03-23 16:59 by kricker.)
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cami Online
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Post: #3
NVIDIA nForce 9200 Chipset

And the TV is a 40" Sony Bravia. It supports 24p.

The problem I described is very subtle but more noticeable when the camera pans. It seems to be non-existent on 50/60fps content and has nothing to do with frame drops. I only seem to get frame drops when skipping around, fast forwarding etc.
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cami Online
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Post: #4
(2012-03-23 16:54)kricker Wrote:  The settings you need to use in video\playback are influenced by the GPUs you have in the system and the TV you are connected to. There are quite a few threads about these issues for almost all the GPUs including the Intel onboard GPUs. There is also an advanced setting that is used to help with setting the proper refresh rate when using the adjust display refresh rate option as sometimes it isn't set properly.


I'm not currently using the "adjust display refresh rate option" because when selected, it takes the TV a few seconds to switch and you miss a few secs of video. And I didn't see any major improvement anyway.

I've searched and searched for this issue but everything I find is talking about 24p issues. I'm not. I'm talking about 30fps/25fps. FYI my TV is PAL. Like I mentioned before no frame drops are listed... Sometimes it will judder, and sometimes the video will then speed up to catch up to where it was.

I was just playing something and while not particularly bad, I decided to have a look at the OSD. I think the video was 30fps... But the OSD had it climbing up to 50fps and down to 31 fps and up, constantly changing. Shouldn't it stay at 30?

Could it be giving me these issues because Windows was set to 60Hz? I've changed to 50Hz, will watch some stuff and see if that has fixed it. I'll kick something if it was that simple.

60 is NTSC so 50 is correct for a PAL TV right?
(This post was last modified: 2012-03-30 17:24 by cami.)
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cami Online
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Post: #5
So after watching a bunch of different files... I think that fixed the issue with 25/30 fps content. Switching to 50 Hz... Although there's a new problem now. All my 60 fps videos are pretty much unwatchable. jumping like crazy. I do have less of these formats but why can't I get everything playing smooth. 60fps is now worse than any of the others were when the PC was set to 60Hz.

When Windows was set to 60 Hz, 60 fps and 50 fps both looked amazing, lower fps were ok but slight judders were there... Now with the PC set to 50 Hz, the lower fps look better than they ever have... but 60 fps is just totally unwatchable. I don't have and 50 fps content to try at the moment.

What's the solution?

PS "adjust display refresh rate option" doesn't cause any issues... It's just annoying the few secs it takes for TV to switch. Although 24p does look slightly better i think, but not really noticeable either way.

My problem now seems to be with 60 fps.
(This post was last modified: 2012-03-30 17:59 by cami.)
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kricker Offline
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Post: #6
Can you find the specs for the TV and see what refresh rates it truly supports? When you hit info on the TV does it tell you the current refresh rate?

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cami Online
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The TV only tells you on screen when using "adjust display refresh rate option" and playing a 24p video.

The television is a sony kdl 40ex401 http://www.sony.co.uk/support/en/product...ifications

I'm googling now for supported rates.

EDIT: I've googled and so far I've had 2 sites telling me 50 Hz and 2 telling me 60 Hz. This sony one clearly says 50 Hz http://www.sony.co.uk/comparison/kdl40ex...dl40v5810u

Windows at 60 Hz = 60fps Amazing, 50 fps Amazing, 25 fps and 30 fps watchable but occasional judder/annoyance.

Windows at 50 Hz = 60 fps Bad, 50fps ?, 25fps and 30 fps look better I think. I may need to watch some more but the OSD (fps reading when u press 'o' on keyboard) on XBMC looks much more stable on 30 FPS vids and the vids themselves look better, although hard to judge until I've watched a couple of hours of stuff.

The issue i'm describing seems to have no relation to the resolution of the videos.
(This post was last modified: 2012-03-30 18:29 by cami.)
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cami Online
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Post: #8
And after more messing around, I think iv finally got all of them working.

I hadn't tried "adjust display refresh rate option" on the 60fps vids. With Windows at 50 Hz. It's smooth now.

I like how in Eden they now have the setting to pause vid for a few secs while ur tv switches, so u don't miss anything.
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kricker Offline
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Post: #9
What did you do "messing around"?

Read this before using these builds.
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cami Online
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Post: #10
I hadn't tried "adjust display refresh rate option" on the 60fps vids. With Windows at 50 Hz. It's smooth now.
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kricker Offline
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Post: #11
So we can call this solved?

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cami Online
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Post: #12
I'm not 100% sure. Because now I'm noticing slight out of sync with this setting. on 24p content.

And without "adjust refresh rate to display" both 60 fps and 24fps are bad.

With it on it's visually smooth, everything seems visually smooth but 24pp seems slightly out of sync. I've tried "sync playback to display" and with these 2 options. ("audio clock", "drop/dupe audio") I haven't tried "resample audio" because I use passthrough audio and don't want my audio changed.
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kricker Offline
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Post: #13
Have you seen this? You may be able to fix it with the advanced settings in the video section. Look at the delay options. You can set delays for specific refresh rates. You can also adjust the refresh rates themselves.

Read this before using these builds.
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cami Online
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Post: #14
I had looked at stuff like that. Some patch http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid...elay+patch

And stuff about setting individual delays for different refresh rates...

But then I saw mention of doing it with your av receiver. Which I tried and I'd never used that feature before. As the audio was very slightly out of sync, i just gave it a very slight tweak and it looks OK so far.

It's hard to tell instantly. Need to watch a few things over time.

What I find strange and can't understand is how, when Windows was set to 60HZ 60fps,24fps etc all played not bad. Although there was slight annoyances which is why I started this thread. Bearing in my mind I didn't use the "adjust refresh rate to display" option.

Now with what I believe to be the correct 50HZ refresh rate in windows, I pretty much HAVE to use the "adjust refresh rate to display" for things like 60 fps or 24fps. While 24fps wasn't quite as bad as 60fps it's way worse than when I had 60hz set in Windows. With no "adjust refresh rate to display" setting.

It's confusing trying to juggle all the different fps. And i'm sure my posts are even more confusing.

One more question and u can mark as solved:

What should I expect from the FPS on the OSD? On xbmc when u press "o"? Should it sit at 23.97? 24? 20.83 (which i just had), 25p even though tv adjusted to 24p which has happened. Can't understand it. Sad

Although all that being said. I do feel as if visually everything is better with this config. For now. So can be closed/solved. I can always start a new thread if i start tweaking stuff more.
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kricker Offline
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Post: #15
(2012-04-04 19:15)cami Wrote:  One more question and u can mark as solved:

What should I expect from the FPS on the OSD? On xbmc when u press "o"? Should it sit at 23.97? 24? 20.83 (which i just had), 25p even though tv adjusted to 24p which has happened. Can't understand it. Sad
Honestly, I don't know either. I've not really had a chance to wrap my head around that. I know when I look at mine, it rarely ever sits solid on a given fps. It seems to wander. That said, I used to run on an old onboard Nvidia 6150 GPU. I just built a new HTP using Intel's HD3000. I'm still reviewing and checking playback on it using various setings, but so far it seems to work very well and things are smoother than they have ever been. I see some stutter on pans for some videos, but I haven't even taken the time to see if it is because of bad encodes or playback issues.

Between XBMC settings, video driver settings and Display/AVR settings it is complicated to say the least. Thank goodness for HDMI. At least now I only have one cable connecting things instead of up to 8.

Read this before using these builds.
XBMC win32 SVN builds
Changelog
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