[Bstrdsmkr]

Just to make sure it doesn't slip through the cracks, the published community policy on the wiki still says that authors may provide a link to send the user to. If that's changing, I think at least a warning on the wiki would be in order.

If I could throw my two cents in, I think a total ban policy is going to be more effort than it's worth. Mainly for the users who create a new account just to ask why they were banned and ends up possibly giving a bad impression of xbmc.org. I had this conversation with a good friend of mine who is an IP lawyer when all this first started. His advice was to explain to the user that the content was prohibited and lock the thread. He said that total deletions could backfire if legal actions were ever brought and this is the scenario he gave:

DBag copyright troll takes a screenshot of a post that hasn't been deleted yet. Later, a team member deletes the post and bans the user. The troll can then use that "evidence" to claim destruction of evidence.

From his point of view, it was better to link them offsite and establish a history of saying "we want nothing to do with that here." That way a single missed post is outweighed by the other evidence.

[umOuch]

If I may... this thread has been enlightening.

1) I am sorry for the frustrations or wrong impressions Adam has put on anyone here! I realize these days that my word does not get me as far in this community as it once did... but I assure you all that Adam's intentions are good. Bstrdsmkr nailed the time line on the head (for the most part) and was right in expressing that Adam is a business man and can EASILY be misunderstood. He has not been on the seen as long as most of us and as such didn't come in with a preset understanding of how XBMC, and more importantly its community, operated. I want to be clear that XBMChub is just as much of a community project as it was the day I started it! Adam is not managing the site/forums/devs etc. He simply wants to grow the site and XBMC.

2) Again, I am embarrassed for what has transpired here... had i ever been informed of any issues I would have jumped one them immediately! It is my own fault... but I assumed it was clear that I started the site and that if there were problems I would have been contacted... MY FAULT... NOT YOURS

3) I have removed the offending addon in the repo. This was NOT LEFT on purpose. I had forgotten it was there as it was broken long ago.

4) The names were never meant to confuse anyone. I actually contacted the Team when starting XBMC HUB and asked permission to launch the venture and, in fact, asked if I could use the name. I was told it would be fine. Due to this, we assumed there was no problem doing so again. AGAIN... MY FAULT

In hopes of helping:
Team XBMC Android (whatever) is now Team xbmcandroid.com (whatever)

5) The press release WAS AN ACCIDENT. I read the release in its entirety and it was NOT attempting to trick anyone. We stated that it was a THIRD PARTY RELEASE, we stated the source site as XBMCANDROID.COM... and so on. I understand, truly, the frustration... and I was heartbroken when i saw what happened and what the outcome was. WE NEVER WANTED TO CREATE FRICTION OR MESS ANYTHING UP.

6) Thank you to those of you who have taken the time to attempt to talk this out and mend fences. I LOVE XBMC. I was a/am fan, and supporter, long before XBMChub was a glimmer in my eye. I only ever wanted to help this community. It just so happened web design was something i could offer as I couldnt code an addon to save my life.

In the furutre... I hope that any problems be directed at me directly. I may not have the right to ask this from you... but XBMC HUB is STILL MY BABY! I am here... I am willing to talk, help, and adjust as needed! Thanks for letting me say my piece.

[DDDamian]

The press release WAS AN ACCIDENT

I think that the "press release(s)" is a bit of an issue. Not so much against you Abrasher, but why wouldn't Team XBMC be upset that what is essentially a commercial site be making press releases when using such monikers as "Team Android XBMC" or what-not?

Does every person making a YouTube video on how to setup Windows call themselves "Team Microsoft"?

EDIT: posted as "DDDamian" not as Team-anybody....

[umOuch]

I am NOT attempting to justify. I can NOW understand where the shortcomings were. We were so excited to share the build, that the dev had made, with the community. We, foolishly, thought Team XBMC would be excited to see us trying to take the heat off of the gripes regarding hardware acceleration. We never thought it would be anything other than useful.

The Team XBMC Android (title) was a sincere mistake... We is oly did the EXACT same thing as I did on XBMCHUB.COM... where folks are titled Team XBMC HUB (title). I can see now how it looks one way, but it was an innocent mistake.

In the Press Release we truly did not make a point to confuse. I KNOW FOR A FACT that if we had attempted to come off as XBMC it would only hurt us, our projects, and our relationship with all of you. This would never be an intentional decision. This is all to say, I understand the frustrations... I want to make things right if I hold the power to do so.

[ronie]

thanx Abrasher for the clarification, much appreciated. if it matters, i never doubted your intentions were good.
i even was kinda proud when several member of our community stood up and created a save harbour
for the addons we couldn't host on our forum anymore.

since you're open to discussion, i'd like to share my personal concerns (as a xbmc team member)....

1) the misrepresentation. you've addressed the xbmcandroid press release in your reply,
but iirc this wasn't the first time this happened. a few months prior to it a similar news story appeared
on several sites about the release of the 'xbmc hub wizard'.
i remember wondering why every reference to 'XBMC' in the text was linked to the xbmchub website?

another example can be found in the instructions of one of your contests:

Contest #4: FORUM SIGNATURE ON OTHER FORUMS
If you're an active member at another forum site with over 50 posts, why not put a link to this site in your forum signature? Just go into your user control panel at your favourite forums and put something like "XBMC - The Future of Television" in your signature and link it to your personal referral link at this site

i'm just trying to make clear it was not a single press release but a series of events that set the bad blood between xbmc and xbmchub.


2) Filmon. the reason we couldn't include it in the xbmc addon repo anymore was due to the inclusion of google analytics in the addon.
i'm sure opinions on this matter differ and my personal one is that it is not done to upload personal data to a third party website without the users consent.
if i have read the code correctly, it uploads the title of every movie you watch through the addon, along with some system specs to google.
who has access to this data...xbmchub? imo software should not pull stunt like this behind the users back.
a fair warning to the users would've been in place imo.
this, together with the installation of the xbmchub repo in the addon, doesn't make xbmchub a trustworthy addon source for me.


on a side note, if xbmchub wants to promote xbmc, as you've stated, i would welcome them to share some of their stuff on our forums as well.
it seems xbmchub is much more than a place for addons we can't have in our own repo these days.
the last time i checked there were lots of tutorials, tips & tweaks, third party tools and what not available on your site.
why not host those here so the entire xbmc community can benefit from it?

reason i ask is, there are many users here who are asking 'why doesn't have xbmc this' or 'why can't xbmc do that'?
most often the answer is simple, it requires people who are interested in investing their time and skills to make it happen.
now if, on the other hand, i see a lot of people who are interested and do have the skills, but do invest their time on third party solutions
i can't help but wondering why they are not interested in helping with xbmc itself and make it a better product for all.

[umOuch]

These... Again, are great points.

The text you shared regarding the contest is our fault! There is seemingly no excusing the poor wordage there. The goal was to spread the word of XBMC and HUB. Sadly, alone it never seems bad... But stacking then up one on top of the other. As I said, I understand the frustration and want top masker it right.

FilmON'S Google analytics is a developer thing... Not an XBMChub thing. I have ZERO access to that information. If implemented in an add on, it is used by that developer Google analytics and is linked to that devs Google analytics account. XBMCHUB was not and is not playing any role in this decision or execution. At all.

Out tools.... We would love for XBMC to use our tools! What do you want its yours. It was my understanding that the told were offered to XBMC. If I misunderstood that... I, again, will need to apologise. you tell me how we can share with you... I will have it done in no time. I would love nothing more than to have XBMChub offer something to you all!!!

[Bstrdsmkr]

Since Mikey1234 isn't here to defend his actions, I'd like to shed some light there as well. FilmOn (the addon) was originally built on an api before Mikey got in touch with the owners of FilmOn (the company). At some point after he began working with them, they shutdown the api to the public. As one of their conditions for him being able to continue providing their content to xbmc, they required him to integrate Google Analytics (which they also use on their site).

There's a thread in the developer's section at xbmchub where he was working it out.

[fullmoonguru]

I'm at Disney World with my family so I haven't been around the computer much.

I just have to say, Wow! I was hoping for a civil discussion about what the issues are & how to make it all work (mostly in the previous threads), and I sure got it!

So, to the XBMC team, thank you for answering my questions at the beginning of this thread. I understand what has transpired & how all this happened, and that you're planning on clarifying how things work on what will be allowed and how it will be handled on this forum. I appreciate the work & understand how it's sometimes a thankless job trying to please your community & getting kind of beat up from all sides. I've been there myself before.

Regarding the larger issues of the repo's & plugins, etc., I am so glad to see people trying to figure out working together productively.

As is usual in these situations, it seems that a combination of misunderstandings, misconceptions, and bad decisions has made things appear to be a much larger problem than they really are.

Good work everybody!

[Ned Scott]

So now there's a Super Repo sub-forum on XBMCHUB that Super Repo has nothing to do with. Super Repo has their own forum. While it's certainly not unheard of for this kind of forum overlap to exist, but in this specific case... it's odd. It's the kind of behavior that has us feeling uneasy and thinking if XBMCHUB is just trying to get more attention for itself. Like everyone is just trying to grab users from everyone else, right out from under their nose. I understand if this isn't intentional, but it's the impression that I get.

[Ned Scott]

So now there's a Super Repo sub-forum on XBMCHUB that Super Repo has nothing to do with. Super Repo has their own forum. While it's certainly not unheard of for this kind of forum overlap to exist, but in this specific case... it's odd. It's the kind of behavior that has us feeling uneasy and thinking if XBMCHUB is just trying to get more attention for itself. Like everyone is just trying to grab users from everyone else, right out from under their nose. I understand if this isn't intentional, but it's the impression that I get.

To clarify, I don't mean to get anyone mad or imply anything bad, I just want to present another example of how these things appear to some of us. These are the kinds of things that lead to the current situation. I'm going to assume good faith and that no harm was meant, but would like to point out how this can be seen by outsiders.

[umOuch]

I just don't know what to say... At this point it is seeming like no matter what is said or done, offense will be taken. I have fought to clear the air, posted an apology on our site, changed titles of our support team, removed an ADDON from our repo, and so...

Now I have done wrong but placing a spot on the forum for SuperRepo?!?! How is this possibly a problem for anyone here!? I have been in communication with the dev and have communicated with him that would gladly leave it up, or take it down. What exactly is the issue you see her Ned Scott? Is there, in fact, a way for XBMCHUB not to offend? Or, and perhaps more likely it seems, are people looking to be offended by us? I mean seriously?

I understand you say that this is just a matter of sharing what things "look like" to some... But it reads like you are I telling us that it is something wrong. How is this "steeling traffic" what on earth is happening here? I was informed that this dev had perhaps had a bad experience with Adam. I tried to show him love by sharing his project with our community. The wrong doing in this situation... Where is it?

[umOuch]

P.S. I think making public claims, accusations, and presumptions without giving room for communication to clear the air and address things like adults... This is what, I feel, leads to "these types" of situations.

I am sorry if this sounds aggressive, but I have fought to be civil and available and instead of expressing any concerns to me via our current P.M. conversation... You choose to slam it here with no consideration.

[BartOtten]

Q: How is this possibly a problem for anyone here!?

Let's see from SR perspective:

- Since SuperRepo existance, SecureCircle is asking me on Skype to join XBMC. I refuse. This happens on a daily basis for the last few weeks. A few times he offered "financial support", saying "Hub is the largest XBMC website"
- He kinda claims that addons developed by the devs are property of Hub and that the developers are part of Hub Team (which some deny btw)
- After a few weeks I ask him: "What about the fight with XBMC?" He denies there are any but two days later...excuses flow in this topic as never before. Coincidence?

- XBian replaced Fusion with SuperRepo for their new Beta. Don sent them (me being part of XBian crew so i could read) a mail stating SuperRepo is "inferior" , "probably won't even be around for long" (say what?) and him being "insulted by this". I let the answer to the other devs as I am clearly biased.

- umOuch sents apologies for his and Hubs behavior. I reply with something like: "It's okey, will respond later with a longer message but busy with 'real life' at the moment."
- But Hub starts a new subforum without waiting "to help" without asking me if I want so. Seeing this happen I told Hub can do so (it's kinda hard to forbid something on someone elses property) but I rather not have it though as it does not really help which you say you want to.
- Besides: All my posts containing a link to SuperRepo are edited by thet same umOuch. Maybe because outgoing links are forbidden, maybe because users are not allowed to know how to install the easy way without Fusion. Fact is: Hub opens a subforum for SuperRepo without allowing it to give full easy service. Calling it a "advantage users only" service is a some kind of self fulfilling prophecy that way.
- And: Hub publishes a guide to install SuperRepo but call their Fusion a dependency and reject to remove that 'dependency' saying it is making it easier, but even Hubs users don't agree with that.

- Hub post about XBMC and SuperRepo but NEVER link to one of those websites. Not even in their "An Open Apology To XBMC.ORG". Still they ask for linking approval from XBMC and put their 'name' in every "Hub adopted addon" (image, description,logo). Maybe those are the real addon developers wanting links and only Hub management is forbidding outgoing links. The effect is one way direction though.

- If I try to communicate, the 'new contact person' umOuch is acting like I attack him, making it look like some 'trick you into a fight' thing. Saying Adam/Secure Circle should not say "Either you are with us or you are against us", but acting just like that (or at least give the impression) doesn't make me feel very happy with XBMChub (management).
- Meanwhile some addon developers don't really seem to be bothered by SuperRepo including their addons (I have talked to them) while Hub still claims that they do. Hub builds on XBMC software but restricts their own?


- Last few days, members of Hub came to me telling that they disagreed with Secure Circle/Adam saying bad things about SuperRepo. As I want the XBMC world to be one happy place I like to believe them. However, their description of intentions does not look anything like the actions of umOuch, Dom and SecureCircle. The list of 'crew members' is starting to grow and I have no clue anymore who of Hub I can trust and who I can't trust as they might be playing double cards.
- SecureCircle (Adam) actions are rejected by Hub Team / devs
- Doms email too? Guess so
- umOuch is speaking of communication but it's really hard as the only point seems to trick me into a fight/trap.(that's not only my personal opinion as I let it review before I stated this). I will tell you the trap I am seeing here:

If I ask for removal of SuperRepo on Hub
- Hub will request removal of 'their addons' from SR. Less addons = Less user experience for users but it does not matter as long as users have to visit Hub for their stuff, right?
- Hub has a reason to ban SuperRepo from their forums once again, saying SuperRepo picked the fight. Good business for Hub as SuperRepo causes Hub Fusion to lose users (being said by a Hub team member)
- I will be told once again I disrespect addon developers. I'll quote "If you respect addon developers you'll join XBMChub." "We [Hub] are the developers of the largest addons for XBMC" etc etc.

I don't ask them to close the subforum:
- I have to support Hub forum too while I stated a dozen times that I don't want to be part of the Hub Team as SuperRepo wants to stay an independent 'deliveryboy', with clean website, logo, desciption and fanart.
- Users will go to Hub for support but I can't fully support them as every outgoing link to SuperRepo is removed
- And some more stuff but it's getting a long post already

So far I did not went public with it and did much of it PM as I did not want to pick a fight, but I am seeing a trap which I know Hub management will deny as soon as I go public with it (sorry, too much experience to surprise me). I don't doubt Hub would really want to tell everybody I started the fight but I am pretty sure I have enough proof I did not led myself into this.

ps. Some 'Hub developers' told me they don't have to do anything with this all. Make sure you don't blame every Hub dev for things done by a few (of the Hub management) as we can't know what they know etc.
pps. Of course, this is a just my feeling of today and I don't say it's the truth. Neither do I accuse anyone of doing this on purpose and I do believe in good intentions. Etc etc. This is just the way I think and feel after a hard week of work.

I hope this is a clear answer to your question and I hope I know soon what the truth is and who I can trust. But so far, my experience with Hub (management) is not good at all.

edits: just to fix errors. Reading a post is easier once posted than it is in the edit-box.
edit 2: removed 'doubles'

[umOuch]

Well, clearly... As I said, you are all desperately attempting to pick a fight with XBMCHUB, regardless of what we tell you or do.

Most, if not all, of the statements from the view of SuperRepo are wrong, misconstrued, or based on interactions that I was NOT PRIVY TO as I stated in this thread, and to B.O. of S.R.

It seems clear to me that you are all hoping that if you can make XBMCHUB look bad enough, and if you create a sense of "management" vs the "devs" perhaps you can shake things up enough to cause real trouble. Here is the dirty secret:

THERE IS NO DIRTY SECERT. this thread is now officially laughable. Nothing in my post was a lie or misleading. It has all been fact... While the post above is filled with opinions camouflaged as revelation.

XBMCHUB TEAM =

umOuch (Abrasher) aka me. ... Originator, administrator.
don (Adam) aka social circle.... Servers, Guides, social networking
Many devs
Many mods
Many helpers

Anyone titled XBMCHUB TEAM MEMBER has a direct line to me... Either phone, email, or other. They all play roles in decisions that effect the forum. As we have made abundantly clear, the issues with Adam were unfortunate, but they are done!

------

The laughable, and foolish, remarks about linking. If you are offended because there is not a HYPER link in a thread TITLED "open apology to XBMC.ORG" you are clearly confused. Notice the mention of XBMC.ORG. as to editing the links in the SR thread... I told you this was the case while we were talking in the PM's before it ever happened. I left all text that stated "check the Get Started link on the SR home page." Did you catch that? I left it! I simply removed the hyperlink as I told you would be the case.

------

This all repeats the clear issue I posted in 56. Y'all are slandering us with opinions and motivations and ignoring the facts and things we... I.... am doing to in an attempt to make things right, if in fact that needed to be.

---

HOPEFULLY YOU ARE ALL DONE SLANDERING XBMCHUB. You will notice the title poster responded to this thread saying "thanks you for the cicil discussion" (paraphrased)

The next post, after the title poster said the thread had served its pirpose is an attack on us again... so very sad

[Ned Scott]

The point of this thread was to calmly explain various things and help everyone understand what was going on. No one is trying to attack anyone else, we're all just trying to express feelings... oh god, this is turning into group therapy, isn't it.

Abrasher, Bart got to say his side of the story. Before that, I offered my own view of how having a SR forum on HUB could be seen as bad. That's all. We're all just trying to understand each other better. If you're going to go off about accusations of slander, then the thread will be closed and nobody wins.