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leechguy · 2013-05-16, 00:20

Compiling took forever tonight on my old Athlon 64 X2 3600+ Smile

Things have definitely improved, but it's not ok yet. I can change the interface language without XBMC crashing. However, I can also change the language and crash XBMC without any problem. When you change the language and then quickly cause something else to receive the focus (e.g. the X to close the window) then XBMC still segfaults.

**Montellese** · 2013-05-18, 00:24

OK I think I finally found the source of the problem and https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/commit/78ea...4fb0cde15e should fix it.

Thanks for your feedback.

leechguy · 2013-05-18, 01:04

Looks good! I have not been able to crash it anymore. Thanks!

**Montellese** · 2013-05-18, 13:57

Thanks for the testing and reporting.

**pecinko** · (This post was last modified: 2013-05-20, 12:01 by pecinko.)

In case new settings layout is not already set in stone, I would suggest:

Make a "Advanced" section for every setting category and move appropriate options there. Get rid of side menu.

Reasoning:

Basic and Expert options seems superfluous to me. I can not see much difference between Advanced and Expert, as I read both of them as "for advanced users". Basic, OTOH lacks some basic settings like screen calibration and feels like "kids corner" and I can not see much reasoning anyone would leave it's system settings at that level.

To cut it short, IMO we could manage with Standard and Advanced only and in that case there's no need for side menu.

Please consider that "simplicity through obscurity" may lead to users not being able to set up system right and many support questions like where are my settings. I suggest making all settings visible all time instead, while moving some of them to Advanced section in order to keep things tidy and stress the need user should refer to XBMC wiki if he intends to mess with Advanced options.

**Montellese** · 2013-05-20, 11:58

The levels of the different settings are still being discussed. I just assigned every setting to a specific level and it was mostly wild guessing because I don't even know what all the settings do.

The "Expert" level is more of a thing for the future if/when we will include settings from advancedsettings.xml in the GUI. Those will still be settings which should really only be touched if you absolutely know what you are doing so IMO they should be seperate from "advanced" settings which have always been present in the GUI (but with a lot of people not really knowing what they do).

nickr · 2013-05-20, 12:02

Yeah it's always a problem - simplicity vs. configurability. There are similar discussions in mythtv development circles. Every time someone says "option X is confusing and redundant" 20 people pop up and say "I couldn't do without it".

We either end up with a dumb unconfigurable system or a whole lot of confusing options.

Me, I like configurability, as long as there are clear directions on EXACTLY what the options do!

**Martijn** · 2013-05-20, 12:05

(2013-05-20, 12:02)nickr Wrote: Me, I like configurability, as long as there are clear directions on EXACTLY what the options do!

https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/pull/2717

**pecinko** · (This post was last modified: 2013-05-20, 12:16 by pecinko.)

(2013-05-20, 12:02)nickr Wrote: Yeah it's always a problem - simplicity vs. configurability. There are similar discussions in mythtv development circles. Every time someone says "option X is confusing and redundant" 20 people pop up and say "I couldn't do without it".

We either end up with a dumb unconfigurable system or a whole lot of confusing options.

Me, I like configurability, as long as there are clear directions on EXACTLY what the options do!

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I believe every setting that's in SettingsCategory.xml should stay there. Even more, I believe all should be visible. I'm just suggesting that some of them could be rearranged:

Appearance
- Skin
- International
- File lists
- Screensaver
- ADVANCED

in order to avoid using of side menu. IMO, side menu with 4 different levels would practically mean that 95% of users would switch to Expert level and leave it like that. OTOH, beginners would probably be very confused.

(2013-05-20, 11:58)Montellese Wrote: The "Expert" level is more of a thing for the future if/when we will include settings from advancedsettings.xml in the GUI. Those will still be settings which should really only be touched if you absolutely know what you are doing so IMO they should be seperate from "advanced" settings which have always been present in the GUI (but with a lot of people not really knowing what they do).

Expert settings could probably be added as a separate item to Settings.xml instead, should the dev team decide to go that route.

e.g.

Appearance
Videos
Music
...
Expert options

**Martijn** · 2013-05-20, 12:24

That's won't work because the expert settings are part of the other group. Having it in one expert section will only make it more unclear.

nickr · 2013-05-20, 13:29

Yeah it all just goes to show that it will be hard to make it perfect Smile

One problem will be if you make a radical change in where various settings are, a whole lot of posts on here and the wiki will become redundant or wrong.

Not that I am against change, but I can see confusion coming...

leechguy · 2013-05-20, 21:53

I agree with Martijn. Settings should be grouped by topic, not by level because that would make it unusable. Ah.. where was this setting, was it on one of the basic, advanced or expert windows? The thing is, Murphy is always around the corner so it is always that you find the setting in the last window you try, even if you try to outsmart Murphy and start with the last one Wink

If you're not able to handle the side menu yet, then you're not ready for any menu beyond the basic menu.

~~Ned Scott~~ · 2013-05-21, 00:51

I've never been a big fan of the sidebar menu. The only exception to this is that PVR seems to make better use of it, but PVR uses the sidebar menu very differently from most of XBMC. I think there should be buttons side by side, with the current level/button highlighted, that is visible at all times in all menus. Like at the very top or something.

**pecinko** · 2013-05-21, 12:31

(2013-05-21, 00:51)Ned Scott Wrote: I've never been a big fan of the sidebar menu. The only exception to this is that PVR seems to make better use of it, but PVR uses the sidebar menu very differently from most of XBMC. I think there should be buttons side by side, with the current level/button highlighted, that is visible at all times in all menus. Like at the very top or something.

There are 2 things to consider with your proposal:

1.With spin control (button that has 2 arrows) navigation is a bit clumsy as left/right firstly navigates between spin arrows and only afterwards move focus to next item in proposed top menu
2. Do we really need 4 level buttons since Basic is missing some important options and if we add them we'll and up very close to Standard level. OTOH, difference between advanced and expert is a bit questionable

**Martijn** · 2013-05-21, 12:37

(2013-05-21, 12:31)pecinko Wrote:
(2013-05-21, 00:51)Ned Scott Wrote: I've never been a big fan of the sidebar menu. The only exception to this is that PVR seems to make better use of it, but PVR uses the sidebar menu very differently from most of XBMC. I think there should be buttons side by side, with the current level/button highlighted, that is visible at all times in all menus. Like at the very top or something.

There are 2 things to consider with your proposal:

2. Do we really need 4 level buttons since Basic is missing some important options and if we add them we'll and up very close to Standard level. OTOH, difference between advanced and expert is a bit questionable

You find them that important ones are missing in Basic while other will disagree. That will be a never ending discussion. IMO basic should stay like for kids or elderly to prevent them screwing up.

expert is to perhaps incorporate settings from as.xml like mentioned already