[KalleS]

No doubt XBMC is a great software, but unfortunately it is built upon the same basic principles as my 20 years old VCR. A front end on my TV screen, controlled by a remote control.

Since then, technology developed and we no got touch screen devices with the ability to act both as frontend and remote control. XBMC Android/iOS app, partly acts this way, but look again at the Remote Control screen within the app. Looking familiar? Yes, the same look as the remote control for my VCR had.

Why put so much effort in a fancy front end for my TV screen, when all i need the front end to do is to show my video, photo or cover art? All the other fancy stuff, menues, settings, should be in the android/iOS app.

Think again, think different.

[sialivi]

You can already do this since XBMC is a UPnP Controller.

1) Enable all the UPnP features in the XBMC installation on your HTPC. Let's call this the server.
2) Install the android or ios version of XBMC on your tablet (not the XBMC Remote app that you're talking about, the full XBMC application). Let's call this the client.
3) Add a new source on the tablet, select UPnP device and pick your XBMC server from the list
4) Browse the libraries on your tablet and select "play using..." from the context menu to launch the media file on the server
5) Bring up the OSD on the tablet to access playback controls like pause, skip, etc.

Also, personally I don't consider having to turn my attention away from the TV just to access navigation controls on a touch device a step up from being able to simple access the same functionality just by the feel of the tactile buttons on my TV remote which I use to control XBMC through HDMI CEC

[Martijn]

My remote from my tv does not support any fancy artwork or whatever as it just has a couple of buttons

[KalleS]

sialivi, thanks for informative response, and you sort of get the idea and you are pointing at on of the most important issues with XBMC Remote (i can´t seem to get the full XBMC application to run on my Android device). Since a touch device does not have tactile buttons an imitated classic remote on a touch device is really hard to use since you get no feedback to your fingers, and must put attention rather to the device than to the screen.

But I see your scenario, using your classic remote controlling XBMC. Nice, but think, how many times to you have to press a button to acces a movie, lets say Wall-E in your library. Given, your library is quite large, scrolling down to W takes a while. Compare to scrolling on a tablet, it is a considerable difference.

XBMC remote already gives us this feature, but when you need to do anything other than browsing your library, your stuck with either having to take out your keyboard or usen the useless remote imitation discussed previous.

Being able to brows your library in a remote app is one step in the right direction, but going the whole way would be to implement the whole interface in the remote app so that i will never have to use the keyboard.

The desktop software should have no interface, just act as a deamon, listening for play requests, and when instructed to play, play the movie in fullscreen. That way you utilize the full potential of tablets or other touch devices. That will be the next thing, unfortunately people dont see that.

Martijn, sorry, but I am not going to responde to stupid posts. If you are a member of the Team-XBMC and dont see the potential, there is no point, me wasting time in this forum.

[Milhouse]

Why put so much effort in a fancy front end for my TV screen, when all i need the front end to do is to show my video, photo or cover art? All the other fancy stuff, menues, settings, should be in the android/iOS app.

I don't want to use a smartphone to control my TV or XBMC - I like a remote control with hard buttons that I can fumble around with in the dark without worrying about accidentally calling my ex-girlfriend.

I absolutely loathe touchscreen devices as remote controls, on the surface they seem like a good idea but in practice they're rubbish as you have to look away from the TV screen to use them, not to mention being prone to unintended touchscreen induced button presses when the device slips down the side of the sofa, or brushes your arm.

The smartphone apps have their place but they're never going to replace a basic hard-button remote control for many people.

[Montellese]

IMO the problem is that as already mentioned tablets and phones are just not able to provide the same usability as remotes when it comes to pressing buttons blindly etc whereas classic remotes aren't able to provide the nice browsing functionality.

Furthermore your proposal assumes that everyone and anyone has a touch screen device. IMO (just guessing though but I know quite a few people who don't have and don't want a smartphone or tablet) the number of people owning a TV is bigger than the number of people having a touch device so you practically deny those people access to XBMC just because they don't have or can't afford a touch screen device.

And TBH I kinda like the nice interface of XBMC on my display. Just having a black screen until I decide to play something sounds boring to me. It's much easier to show off XBMC on a huge TV than on a "small" touch screen.

[KalleS]

I absolutely loathe touchscreen devices as remote controls, on the surface they seem like a good idea but in practice they're rubbish as you have to look away from the TV screen to use them, not to mention being prone to unintended touchscreen induced button presses when the device slips down the side of the sofa, or brushes your arm.

The smartphone apps have their place but they're never going to replace a basic hard-button remote control for many people.

I dont see the problem with having to look away from the TV screen to use the remote. The remote app should give no respons on the TV screen other than play/pausing the movie. All other respons is given in the app. I am sorry, but I cant agree with you on the future of hard-button remote controles, this is going to change. These things worked fine, when all they did was to change channels and volume. Today, they must be able to do so much more than that.

Montelles:
If the purpose of XBMC is to show of a fancy interface, fine, you have done a good job. But when it takes two minutes to scroll through my library, I, nor my guests, are impressed. Regarding people using smartphones or tablets, no, you are right, not everyone has these. Nor does everyone hava a computer hooked up their TV. Today, I consider smartphones or tablets more widely used than computers hooked up to a TV.

Well, obviously I am alone in these thoughts. But remember to think outside the box, a few people did, and they changed the way we use media today. There will always be things to improve, always.

[Milhouse]

I dont see the problem with having to look away from the TV screen to use the remote.

Think again, think different.

You really should give your own advice a try.

The remote app should give no respons on the TV screen other than play/pausing the movie. All other respons is given in the app. I am sorry, but I cant agree with you on the future of hard-button remote controles, this is going to change. These things worked fine, when all they did was to change channels and volume. Today, they must be able to do so much more than that.

You're still not getting it, a lot of users simply don't want to have to look away to navigate their remote control - they like being able to control their TV (or XBMC) simply through tactile feedback, which means they can access the full range of remote control functions without looking away from the screen or with the lights off. No amount of functionality in a smartphone app is going to be able to replace hard button usability.

Sure, remote controls (think: Harmony, if they keep going) may become smarter, in fact I love my Harmony One, but hard buttons will always have the advantage over a touchscreen given the environment and way in which a remote control is used. I'm not a knuckle dragger, I do get the advantage touchscreens have on mobile phones and other devices, but remote controls are the one device where I (and I think many others) really don't want an all-touch interface.

[t2ffn]

Why does it take you 2 mins to scroll through your library?

a) You are browsing films deciding what to choose, so everyone needs to see it and decide, so this doesn't matter.
b) You know what you want to watch but are slow at using XBMC to get to it. Holding down scroll fires through the movies screens very quickly, better yet, use the search feature to jump to the exact film.
c) You're exaggerating the time taken or have a slow machine that is not quick enough to navigate quickly.

[da-anda]

You can use SMS style typing (IIRC) to jump to a certain movie in large libraries or use the filter/search along with the OSD keyboard.

I agree that using a tablet/smartphone as second screen and load off some of the GUI to it is tempting and nice in some situations, but it will never become a replacement for a physical remote - at least not for everybody and not as long as tactile displays are not standard.

It shouldn't harm though to extend our JsonRPC interface to expose more data/functions to remote clients as long as we manage to somehow limit access to system critical stuff to only authorized remotes. And I think that's currently the main issue - how to authorize remote clients?

[KalleS]

da-anda, with smartphones we finally moved away from using SMS style typing and OSD keyboards on the TV have never been a hit. I am glad though to hear that you are open for opening up the JsonRPC interface. But XBMC will always be built around the same principle as it is today.

I totally agree, as a remote control, hard buttons will never be replaced by a touch device. But what I am proposing is not a remote control for your TV. The tablet/smartphone is the media centre, and your TV is just the screen showing the movie. That way, the app is just like any other app, and obviously people have no problem using apps, even in darkness.

I didnt expect this idea to be accepted, basically because it implies that the GUI as we se it will be to no use. And with all the time and effort put in to it, no one will give that up. XBMC is build upon a different way of experience your HTPC software, and for those who like that way, it is a great software, no doubt. And XBMC, as a software, will not go away from it´s basic principle.

But for me, this is not what i believe is the best and most intuitive way of experience media today, not with the technology available. I still believe in the principle that the TV should do one thing only, playing the movie, and menues, settings, and all that stuff, should be on your touch device.

Thanks for an interesting discussion though.

[da-anda]

KalleS - you can install XBMC on your phone and use UPNP play-to feature to stream stuff directly to your TV without having XBMC running on it (as long as it also supports UPNP). So you sort of already can have what you want atm and simply miss a app like skin.

[Ned Scott]

The entire point of XBMC is the GUI, so yeah, most of what you are suggesting is asking for a different kind of media player, one that really isn't what most users of XBMC are looking for.

Despite that, we already do what you are asking right now. The flexibility of remote interfaces is huge, and I don't think you've even explored all the official smartphone apps have to offer. Don't like the traditional remote button look? Switch to the swipe controls. The iOS remote even has fine-scrubbing controls now.

Even further, what da-anda said. XBMC itself is now a remote control for XBMC, or other UPnP sources. Combined with XBMC's totally customizable skinnable interface, and our ever improving touch support, the options are vast.

Having an on-screen GUI is important for other future controls, so I'm not sure why you think it's some kind of outdated way of doing things. Users already are using motion tracking (using webcams and Kinects), voice control, even eye tracking, for controlling XBMC.

We could argue on end that remotes (including ones I don't think you've considered) may or may not be the future, but what you seem to be missing here is that XBMC is about being customizable. We don't have to give up the GUI in order to support these other control ideas. Everyone can get what they want, because we support all these different options.

[arunbandhu]

Why put so much effort in a fancy front end for my TV screen, when all i need the front end to do is to show my video, photo or cover art? All the other fancy stuff, menues, settings, should be in the android/iOS app.

I don't want to use a smartphone to control my TV or XBMC - I like a remote control with hard buttons that I can fumble around with in the dark without worrying about accidentally calling my ex-girlfriend.

I absolutely loathe touchscreen devices as remote controls, on the surface they seem like a good idea but in practice they're rubbish as you have to look away from the TV screen to use them, not to mention being prone to unintended touchscreen induced button presses when the device slips down the side of the sofa, or brushes your arm.

The smartphone apps have their place but they're never going to replace a basic hard-button remote control for many people.

agreed absolutely...touch screen devices as remote control is very bad idea...also would like to add even with todays technology smart phones have a big disadvantage of low battery back up and irritating heating issues (doesn't matter what the ad say)..with more apps running this becomes very prominent and annoying, which is why its not comfortable as a traditional remote..you know just get in to the couch..browse for 10 to 15 min..fiddle with the settings and finally play some media and throw the remote to the side....very much possible with a hard-key remote..The only issue i see is typing gets a bit slow with traditional remotes because either you use the onscreen keyboard or its not that comfortable even if your remote has a keyboard (I use Motorola NYXboard)...otherwise its good to go...but good news is technologies like gesture recognition (kinnect, ps3 move) and projection hmi (projection keyboard) is surfacing now a days and evolving in faster pace ....what you know, they fix a few bugs...add more functionality..make it universal and cheap and we have a new discussion thread

[pko66]

I think using a touchscreen (from a tablet or smartphone) is a really bad and backwards idea. It is not "think different" at all, because it seems that today everything must be adapted to a touchscreen, regardless if it is a good idea or not (see desktop PCs & Win8).

Touch screens have no tactile feedback, are extremely dumb when discerning between intentional and unintentional touches, require you to switch attention between the big screen and small (if you need glasses to focus to near objects that is an enormous PIA)... They can be useful to perform some difficult/complex searches or browsing but are at best a really poor compromise. They are fine as a gimmick and to show off your installation to unsuspecting guests, but its practical use is very limited.

What I think really is best and will some day be a reality (maybe soon), is to get rid off of any "remote" or device at all, just have the TV understand your intentions. With a mic and a camera kinect-style, it should follow your pupils to understand what are you looking at in the screen, and understand your spoken commands and/or your hand, finger and even face movements, applying them to the context of what you are looking at on the screen and behave in a "machine-intelligent" way about it. You will need perhaps to still learn some standardized, conventional movements for your "intelligent screen" ("smart" denomination is already taken!) to understand what you want, but the system could be powerful and intuitive enough for it being almost effortless to use.

When, if ever, will that be possible in a home installation? I do not know, but touchscreen for these applications is IMO a really dumb option.