Musicbrainz-chaos
#16
If it was reproducible, it would be fixed. Everything works perfectly on the files I have, with MBID or not.

If you have files that allow us to reproduce, we need to have them along with clear details as to how to reproduce.
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#17
Yes i've been testing this extensively over the last few days, I can't find any "bugs" that are reproducible.

@fantasticn if you find one please provide a sample and we can check it.
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#18
Hi guys,

the Musicbrainz IDs are mainly for getting biographies and album infos (which you do not always get based only on the tags - that's what this thread started with). I just did not want them to override the naming and sorting of my artists, albums and the included files at the same time.

Last time I tried it (two weeks ago) all files that included a MB ID were automatically organized (artist and album names as well as files within the album) based on the Musicbrainz infos, not based on their tags. Therefore I deleted all Musicbrainz ID (but then I did not get all album and artist infos anymore). That's why I tried experimenting with artist.nfo and album.nfo, which did not work out either. And then I started this thread. But I will try again on the weekend and come back with infos.

Sorry for causing such a big discussion about it. That was not actually my aim.

Once again thanks for your support. I really appreciate your interest in the issue and willingness to help.

Brgds,

FantasticN
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#19
Its no problem, since this feature is new and we are interested in "real world" user feedback, you have our attention Wink
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#20
@jmarshall I've sent you a pm with a sample file.

No matter what artist.nfo or album.nfo I put in the folder it doesn't seem to override the default search which matches some other artist called P.S.Y

I'm trying to match the "PSY - Six Rules" album which is particularly hard because he is listed under his korean name on musicbrainz

artist.nfo
http://musicbrainz.org/artist/f99b7d67-4...6ac0f7d24a

album.nfo
http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/670...51eda82f58

Is it something scraper related, or maybe user error? Smile
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#21
Definitely related to your bad taste Wink
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#22
Ok, I have uploaded a bunch of MP3 files that you can grab here: http://ul.to/l16dgeu7

It includes the following:
1. Camouflage/Various Mixes
Various songs from Camouflage taken from different albums
tagged with Picard and then tag fields amended with Tag&Rename
Album Artist = Camouflage, Album = Various Mixes, Compilation = off

2. Depeche Mode\Stranglove (Maxi CD)
Maxi-CD with additional songs
tagged with Picard; verified with Tag&Rename (no changes necessary)
Album Artist = Depeche Mode, Album = Stranglove (Maxi CD), Compilation = off

3. Depche Mode/It's No Good (Maxi CD)
Maxi-CD with additional songs
tagged with Picard; verified with Tag&Rename (no changes necessary)
Album Artist = Depeche Mode, Album = It's No Good (Maxi CD), Compilation = off

4.Madonna/Like a Prayer
ATTENTION: THAT IS JUST A TEST! Actually it is the Album "Delta Machine" from Depeche Mode
tagged with Picard as "Depeche Mode - Delta Machine", but revised with Tag&Rename afterwards
Album Artist = Madonna, Album = Like a Prayer, Compilation = off

5. Various Artists/Various Hits 2007
Four totally songs from diffrent artist and different albums (Monrose "Hot Summer", Monrose "Shame", Rihanna "Umbrellal" and "Take Tat "Patience")
tagged with Picard and then tag fields amended with Tag&Rename
Album Artist = Various Artists, Album = Various Hits 2007, Compilation = ON

I used XBMC 13 Gotham Nightly Built 20140126-b6d31a3-master and Universal Artist Scraper / Universal Album Scraper for scraping. In Settings / Music the option "Download additional information" was enabled, and the option "Allow online data to override music tags" was disabled.

Expected result: Artist should be listet as named in "Album Artist"-tag. Albums should be incldued under respective Artist with names provided in "Album" tag. Metadata (Biographies, Album-Infos) should be grabbed as provided in the Musicbrainz-IDs

Actual result: Chaos. Artist and Album-tags seem to be ignored. Somehow the Musicbrainz-IDs seem to be preferred for sorting and naming.

Please do not blame me for the albums and songs I picked. That was just a spontanious selection for testing purpose :-)
Btw: This is just for testing (as requested). Please delete these songs afterwards because of copyright reasons - of course.

Brgds,

FantasticN

PS. I used the latest Alpha-Version of Picard for tagging. In settings you are offered to enter certain tag-fields that should not be overwritten when tagging the files. In this latest release those fields can be separated by commas (not spaces anymore, like in previous releases), which makes it possible to also exclude "Album Artist", "Album", etc from being overwritten. However, when I used Picard those field were overwritten anyway. So I had to "correct" them afterwards using Tag&Rename. But it seems that XBMC is ignoring those "corrections" and just using the infos scraped from the MB-IDs for sorting and naming.
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#23
Thanks for the tracks. I've taken a look.

Camouflage: A total of 4 different MBAlbumId tags here. Plus 2 separate MBArtistId tags also. Thus, as expected, 2 artists named "Camouflage" with the songs scattered across the various 4 "Albums" (all have the same name, so you get 4 copies of that album).

Madonna/Like A Prayer: Scans correctly in as "Madonna Like A Prayer" with Depeche mode tracks, as expected.

etc.

It seems to be doing exactly what it should be. MBIDs are used to disambiguate as designed, but don't replace the actual artist/album names.

If you don't want 4 copies of "Camouflage" in your library, then don't have 4 different MBIDs.

Cheers,
Jonathan
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Do not e-mail XBMC-Team members directly asking for support. Read/follow the forum rules.
For troubleshooting and bug reporting please make sure you read this first.


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#24
Hi jmarshal,

first of all thanks for testing and thanks for the feedback. But what you are saying is, that indeed MB-IDs are used for sorting. Because even though the tags of the Camouflage-songs (Album as well as Album Artist) are identical I still get two entries of the Artist "Camouflage" and four entries of the Albums "Various Mixes" in my Database. If this the "expected" result than it means that I always have to get the MB-IDs correct for naming and sorting in the database, even if "Allow online data to override music tags" is deactivated. That was exactly what I was saying.

Same applies to "Madonna - like a prayer" (with the Depeche Mode Tracks included). They were not listed under "Madonna" but still under Depeche Mode. So Album and Album Artist tags were "ignored" as a matter of fact.

Getting the MB IDs totally in line with the tags is not quiet easy. If the songs do not form an "original" album, then Picard is not able to grab the MB IDs for them as one cluster. So it can only grab the IDs for the individual songs (if it finds them) and take these IDs from different albums. That's what occured to the Camouflage-songs. And - as I explained - this is a basic problem, e.g. for self-made compilations, albums with "self-added" bonus-tracks, bootlegs or undiscovered albums/tracks, or with albums that do usually consist of two Discs and are copied to one folder etc. etc. etc.. Also there are a lot of albums with different song-sets for different countries (or different album releases) and musicbrainz does not always identify the correct album. And there are also album which are not even listed in musicbrainz though they actually do "exist" and therefore are their IDs are taken from other albums. So totally relaying on the MB IDs for building up the database is an requirement that is hard to comply with.

The alterative would be to erase all MB IDs for ALL songs (because if some have the IDs and some don't I will get a mess as well showing the same artist or even the same album several times like with different IDs). But if you erase the MB IDs totally (which I finally did) it's abvisouly hard to get metadata (even for well known artists). Also: The MB IDs for the respective songs are mainly "correct". So why erase them? It's just that these IDs were taken from seperate albums and that these are not actually the albums that I have put the songs in together.

Brgds,

FantasticN
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#25
What you're calling "sorting" I'm calling "disambiguation", yes. I call it that as it really has nothing to do with sorting - sorting operates on the labels which are derived only from tags. When it bundles multiple artists together with the same MBID (and different labels) (disambiguating) it'll use the first label found for the "artist" bit, but in the reference from album -> artist it'll use the tag. If you'd used U2 tracks for the Madonna fake-album for example, then Madonna would have been listed in the artist section, and all U2 tracks would be sorted under "Madonna" (but listed as U2 in the UI). Get what I mean?

After all, what else should it do? You have conflicting information in the tags: 4 albums with the same name but different album IDs must be 4 different albums - why else would they have different identifiers? If we don't use them here, it makes no sense to use them for looking up metadata - after all, we'd just get 4 different sets of metadata - how would we know what to do?

You can't have one without the other, it's as simple as that. If you want your own compilation albums then you'll need to give them all the same MBID. If Picard can't do it, get something that can, or just don't use MB at all for those tracks/albums/compilations for which it doesn't make sense. Without MBID, XBMC normally does just fine at looking up album info. Or, specify one track with the MBID and then leave it off the rest for that album.

(You can _possibly_ include a MBID or link in the form of an artist.nfo/album.nfo file if you want - it will likely only make sense if (and only if) you also have no MBID info in the tracks - else, again, you'll get conflicting information).

I could probably live with a setting in XBMC to completely ignore any and all MBID information, but there really isn't any other options that make sense.

Cheers,
Jonathan
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Do not e-mail XBMC-Team members directly asking for support. Read/follow the forum rules.
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#26
Hi Jonathan,

I see what you mean. If you would - as I request - list all the tracks with the same Album Artist"-tag under just one artist-entry in the database then you would be facing a certain problem if the MB-Artist-IDs are varying and you do not know which metadata to fetch for that single Artist then. Same applies for the Album-information when you have one Album-tag but different MB-Album-IDs. Solution would be to fetch the metadata for the first file and that's it. If Album Artist is "Various Artists" it would be best to not fetch any metadata at all.

What you are suggesting is manually revising the MB IDs of each file to match the individual requirements. That's a hard job to do because those IDs a very crpytic and you woudl need a tool (e.g. MP3Tag) that is capable of that. And can you imagine the avarage Jow doing this when creating his own compilation of songs (like he used to do with is tapes and CDs)? However, it would not help either. Because those IDs do always refer to a static combination of Artist, Album and Songs that follow official releases that are listed at Musicbrainz. You never get the flexibility to create your own setup that actually does not exist.

Therefore - if you do not follow my proposal above - I would prefer the other solution you suggested which is completely ignoring MB IDs. At least I would not have to look at each new song or album, if there are MB IDs included, and erase them manually to avoid the chaos.

Brgds,

FantasticN
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#27
"Solution would be to fetch the metadata for the first file and that's it"

What if it's wrong? We'd need a bunch of code to support the "you have a MBID but you don't want to use it" case for lookups.

IMO there's no decent solution there other than completely ignoring MBIDs.
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Do not e-mail XBMC-Team members directly asking for support. Read/follow the forum rules.
For troubleshooting and bug reporting please make sure you read this first.


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#28
Hi Jonathan,

I have about 200GB of music all tagged fine as to artist, album, album artist, title, track number, disc number and (mostly) genre. So what would you suggest how to implement Musicbrainz-ID in the following scenarios (just some examples):

1. I have four original Albums from the Artist Camouflage. Album and Album Aritist (and all the other tags) tagged correctly with the respective names.

2. I have one bootleg Album from the Artist Camouflage. Album and Album Aritist (and all the other tags) tagged correctly with the respective names. The album is not listed at Musicbrainz.

3. I have one original Album from the Artist Camouflage. Album and Album Aritist (and all the other tags) tagged correctly with the respective names. Unfortunately two songs inbetween (track 4 and 5) are missing. It could even be that the song order is not correct.

4. I have some various songs (mostly 12inch) from the Artist Camouflage that were taken from several samplers or 12inch-CDs or whereever I found them. I have put them together in an album called "Various Mixes". Again Album Aritist (and all the other tags) tagged correctly with the respective names, Album name is "Various Mixes".

5. I have some official samplers (like Bravo Hits 36, Italo Hit Giants Vol 5 etc.) that do include various songs from various artists. Album (and all the other tags) tagged correctly with the respective names. Album Artist is "various artists".

6. I have some self-made samplers (like Top100 Hits of 2012, Best of the 80s, Best of the 90s, Best of R&B etc.) that do include various songs from various artists that I put together from various samplers, albums and 12inche-CDs and that -in some cases - I still keep amending. All song-tags are tagged correctly. Album is named as described, Album Artist is alsways named "Various Artists".

So in my database (XBMC) I want to find all my Camouflage albums under the Artist "Camouflage" and all the songs under the respctive albums. And as to the samplers I want to find all of them under various artists (or und the section samplers) and all songs in their respective albums. And I would like to have Metadat for the artists Camouflage and - at least - for all official albums.

How shall I apply Musicbrainz-IDs to grant that following the new implemented scraping-system?

Btw.: I think those scenarios are very common.

Brgds,

FanasticN
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#29
I'd suggest using MBID when it makes sense to do so (i.e. it's on MB) and not using it when not.

XBMC does not require it to be there. If you have an artist in your database with MBID already set and a song comes along from the same artist without MBID set, then it'll use the MBID for that artist. Same applies to albums. Similarly, if you have an artist in your database without MBID and a song comes along from the same artist with MBID set, then that artist will now have an MBID.

The only case you get problems are multiple (different) MBIDs for the same artist or album.

Cheers,
Jonathan
Always read the XBMC online-manual, FAQ and search the forum before posting.
Do not e-mail XBMC-Team members directly asking for support. Read/follow the forum rules.
For troubleshooting and bug reporting please make sure you read this first.


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#30
I had a look at these files. I am no expert on the new XBMP (I'll always refer to it as that too old school) system and the scraping but I think I do know MusicBrainz fairly well.

For the Camouflage ones.

I see all the "MusicBrainz Artist Id"s as the same bc6b7d82-1d7b-4f48-b742-d32936f5d5c9 apart from those 2 tracks that you have chosen not to assign any MB tags to (i found them easily in the database so not sure why you could not find them)

You have assigned one of the tracks to a Various Artist compilation so the
"MusicBrainz Release Artist Id" is different in this case for this one track. i.e. the album artist

I am not sure how the devs are using MB artist id tags "MusicBrainz Artist Id" vs "MusicBrainz Release Artist Id" but it could explain the difference here. Maybe that is something to look at but it depends on your behaviour of your app do you want to look at the album artist tag or the art tag?

All the others the explanations seem straight forward.

(2014-01-31, 08:46)jmarshall Wrote: Thanks for the tracks. I've taken a look.

Camouflage: A total of 4 different MBAlbumId tags here. Plus 2 separate MBArtistId tags also. Thus, as expected, 2 artists named "Camouflage" with the songs scattered across the various 4 "Albums" (all have the same name, so you get 4 copies of that album).

Madonna/Like A Prayer: Scans correctly in as "Madonna Like A Prayer" with Depeche mode tracks, as expected.

etc.

It seems to be doing exactly what it should be. MBIDs are used to disambiguate as designed, but don't replace the actual artist/album names.

If you don't want 4 copies of "Camouflage" in your library, then don't have 4 different MBIDs.

Cheers,
Jonathan
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