[advocate99]

NOTE: As a result of JMarshall's participation, I have realized that most of my original message was not quite correct. As a result, I've changed the title of this message and am now just requesting that SmallStepBack be included in remote.xml in Gotham. Presently, it's not there.

While I'm capable of modfying remote.xml to add this where i need it, most users won't. If this feature isn't in the remote.xml keymap, for most users with remote controls, it might as well not exist. And it's a very nice feature!

My original message follows so that anyone coming along will understand JMarshall's responses:

-------------

I suggest that the devs change the default remote.xml in Gotham so that skip forward/back buttons on remote controls (<skipplus> and <skipminus>) map to StepForward and SmallStepBack.

As it is NOW, Gotham has no native support on the remotes for smallstepback at all.

Currently, skip forward/back maps to Chapter/Big Skip (10 minutes), but those mappings are redundant, as the BOTH the Page Up/Down buttons AND the Up/Down Directional Pad buttons already do the very same thing.

Here's the keymapping that I propose:

<keymap>
<global>
<remote>
<skipplus>StepForward</skipplus>
<skipminus>SmallStepBack</skipminus>
</remote>
</global>
</keymap>

As always, thanks a bunch for the best Media Center that I've ever used!!

[jmarshall]

This is incorrect. <skipplus> is mapped to SkipNext, which will for example change channels, skip through chapters in a video, or skip through items in a playlist, depending on exactly what is playing. Whereas <up> is mapped to BigStepForward.

In some circumstances they may do the same thing. In others they won't.

In either case, what you're proposing seems to be duplicating the <right> action for <skipplus>.

If you use these frequently, then you're ofcourse free to remap them how you like. I don't see the default mapping changing as you've suggested. If anything, I'd suggest the default mapping force the skip buttons to operate on the playlist instead of chapters etc.

[advocate99]

I see what you mean.

But, I believe that PageUp (Page Plus?) is already mapped to SkipNext as well, so there is a redundancy.

More importantly, SmallStepBack appears nowhere in the remote.xml. In Frodo, it was mapped to my exit button.

I won't have any trouble redoing the remote.xml to fix the issue, but a lot of users are going to have trouble with this, and new users may well be turned off and go away completely...

If there's a good reason not to use SmallStepBack where I suggested, I still suggest you find a way to get it onto a remote button, as it will be missed by lots of users.

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my concern!

This is incorrect. <skipplus> is mapped to SkipNext, which will for example change channels, skip through chapters in a video, or skip through items in a playlist, depending on exactly what is playing. Whereas <up> is mapped to BigStepForward.

In some circumstances they may do the same thing. In others they won't.

In either case, what you're proposing seems to be duplicating the <right> action for <skipplus>.

If you use these frequently, then you're ofcourse free to remap them how you like. I don't see the default mapping changing as you've suggested. If anything, I'd suggest the default mapping force the skip buttons to operate on the playlist instead of chapters etc.

[jmarshall]

PageUp is page up if you're in a list. If it happens to function elsewhere as something else, that's a bonus**. In either case, however, the actions are in fact different - it just may be that in certain specific circumstances they may perform the same thing.

The main use for small step back is when you have advertisements to skip without decent auto-detection. i.e. that's a subset of users. Thus, it takes a backseat when other buttons are more useful (we particularly focus on ensuring that remotes with very few buttons available work as intuitively as we can).

I think you'll agree that the removal of the "Exit" mapping of small step back is overall a UI improvement in this light, right?

If there's a consistent, well defined way to get everything we have and small step back, then sure. ATM I'm not sure that's the case, however...

Cheers,
Jonathan

** Note: Personally I don't like the fact that they do different things - I'd prefer that the basic actions did one thing and one thing only, and then there were clearly marked composite actions for these 'do <foo> in situation <bar> but <bar> in situation <foo>' type things. We haven't caught all of these as yet.

[advocate99]

Thank you again for taking the time to respond.

Yes!! I absolutely agree that the use of the back/exit button to get back to the menus and stuff while watching Full Screen Video is a major improvement. Major!

However, the smallstepback button is great both for people who skip commercials and those that face interruptions while watching TV. "What did he say??" followed by smallstepback is a common occurrence in my house.

With respect to pageplus, I have confirmed that it is mapped to SkipNext.

So, Page up and Page Down are redundant with skipplus and skipminus in Gotham.

I defer to your experience with skipplus and skipminus, and but I stand by my suggestion that you find a place for smallstepback somewhere.

Thanks again.

---

I guess I should clarify that Pageplus is mapped to skipnext in fullscreen video and not Global... So, you're right there as well.

Again, though, there has to be a place on the remote for the SmallStepBack. There just has to be!!!

[jmarshall]

With respect to pageplus, I have confirmed that it is mapped to SkipNext.

In fullscreen, yes (the file is here in case others are interested): https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/blob/master...remote.xml

So yes, I'd agree that they're duplicates in fullscreen, so one or the other could be replaced. I'm not sure these buttons are the best ones to use though, as they tend to suggest larger steps?

Personally I'd be OK with <left> mapping to small step back, but others no doubt have to have that

I'd also be happy with some sort of incremental skipping. i.e. one press -> 5 seconds. 2 -> 10 seconds, 3 -> 30 seconds, but this would need to be communicated very well to the user so they knew what was happening (on screen feedback).

Personally I tend to use the time skipping quite a bit - i.e. 10 seconds back? 1, 0, left.

What this shows is we have lots ways to skip, with none of them being quite right. I suspect if we sit down and really think what it is we use (and perhaps watch others use it, and talk to them about what they use and don't use) that we can drop the 8 or whatever buttons it is down to a small number that do what almost everyone will be happy with.

Cheers,
Jonathan

[Ned Scott]

I actually think there is a case to be made for making smallstepback the default for "left", but I think there would be much resistance to this idea. On any limited button remote, I always map smallstepback to left. It's only been recently with my new xbox 360 black media remote (that I LOVE) that I have been able to keep "left" as stepback, and I mapped "smallstepback" to the huge-ass "XBOX" button at the top. SmallStepBack is easily the most used button on my remote :)

[advocate99]

Wow! I didn't even know about the time-based skipping. That's a very nice feature to have.

I definitely would NOT put smallstepback on the left arrow as that would destroy the congruety with up/down/left/right.

I use an IR learning Universal Remote (The URC RF20) and so in Frodo, I just learned "Exit" to the SkipBack button. As long as it's on a button, any button, that's going to be enough for most users to find out its there and map it to what they want to do. But, if it's not there at all, most people will never know about it and it'll be forgotten...

Perhaps an option, i.e. "Skip Forward/Back Buttons" and then (current behavior) or "Skip Forward 30/Skip Back 7"..

[Ned Scott]

I'd also be happy with some sort of incremental skipping. i.e. one press -> 5 seconds. 2 -> 10 seconds, 3 -> 30 seconds, but this would need to be communicated very well to the user so they knew what was happening (on screen feedback).

I think da-anda was looking at something like this once. I think it would be a great id--

Personally I tend to use the time skipping quite a bit - i.e. 10 seconds back? 1, 0, left.

--OH. MY. HASSELHOFF. I never knew we could do that! That's freaking awesome! I thought I had all the FF/RW methods covered.

[da-anda]

I'd love to get incremental skipping, but I'm not able to implement it (tried it once and it was over my head how to implement the delayed trigger).

[Milhouse]

I must admit to being very surprised when smallstepback was dropped from the default keymap - it's got to be one of the most useful buttons on a remote besides play and stop...

[da-anda]

I never used smallstepback, only stepback/forward and bigstepback/forward. But incremental skipping would solve all issues IMO as everbody could customize how large the step forward/back will be and if he'd like to have more than one skip step (incremental steps). This would leave up/down open to alway jump chapters or switch channels on limited button remotes (more consistency)

[Milhouse]

Maybe its because I've owned a TiVo since 2000 that I've become so accustomed to jumping back 7-8 seconds to replay some dialogue I've misheard. Incremental skipping sounds like a possible solution.

[da-anda]

missing incremental skipping is the only thing preventing me from entirely switching to XBMC - but fixed skip sizes are so annoying in PVR context (have to click skip 20-30 times sucks, but also don't want to change skip size because there are situations when you need smaller steps). That's why I still do PVR with MediaPortal

[advocate99]

I guess this goes back to my original request as well, but every commercial set-top box that I've ever owned (Dish, DirectTV, Tivo, and Time Warner box), all use the skip forward and skip back as +30 seconds and -10 seconds. That's why I feel that those buttons should be mapped to those functions by default.

I've never owned ANY device that used those buttons to skip forward/back 10 seconds, which is what happens when I watch video on Gotham, or to skip playlist content which was the default in Frodo.

While I understand that SkipNext is only mapped to PagePlus in full screen video, most of us watch video in full screen mode. And the absence of smallstepback will be a bigger deal than the inability to SkipNext when you're NOT in full screen mode, IMHO...