[TylerD004]

Can we please get some MadVR in XBMC?? I'm so sick of having external players. It is better. Get out of denial. It is better. It looks better. Video never stutters. 10 bits works perfectly. Why is XBMC trapped in the dark ages?

[jpsdr]

It was already tried, but it was rejected by the xbmc team because it seems that to implement MadVR, there is too much change to do in the video engine and/or (i don't remember exactly) it may be too much Windows related, and xbmc want to stay multi-platform as much as possible.

[Maxoo]

There's no denying it's better. It's just the size of the improvement that's questioned. Specially given the time and work it would take to implement.

Way too much work for a really tiny improvement.

Plus, it's windows only.

[lmyllari]

I'm implementing dithering and color management in XBMC. Are there other neat features in MadVR that would be applicable to XBMC?

[TylerD004]

Are there other neat features in MadVR that would be applicable to XBMC?

YES! Smooth Video. I've been testing out other media portals that do support MadVR and on my HTPC (Intel NUC HD5000), MediaBrowser Theater video is silky. With native XBMC 13.1, it looks fine, but it's not crazy smooth looking like the other player. Also, MPC-HT with MadVR and Smooth Video is definitely smoother than XBMC, but still not as smooth as MediaBrowser. I can't figure out why. If you can figure that out and get it into XBMC, we're done. We'll have the best of all worlds.

[lmyllari]

YES! Smooth Video. I've been testing out other media portals that do support MadVR and on my HTPC (Intel NUC HD5000), MediaBrowser Theater video is silky. With native XBMC 13.1, it looks fine, but it's not crazy smooth looking like the other player. Also, MPC-HT with MadVR and Smooth Video is definitely smoother than XBMC, but still not as smooth as MediaBrowser. I can't figure out why. If you can figure that out and get it into XBMC, we're done. We'll have the best of all worlds.

What's Smooth Video?

XBMC has already flawless playback with refresh rate matching - at least on my NUC using OpenELEC.

[TylerD004]

I misquoted, it's called Smooth Motion. I don't know what it's doing, but it just looks MUCH better.

My XBMC matches my refresh flawlessly too. That's not the issue.

If you watch a film at [24000/1001] FPS, the computer has to elongate certain frames in order to match the 60Hz HDMI output. 99% of TVs only take 60Hz as an input. When a TV advertises that it's 120Hz or 240Hz or whatever, they are saying there is a mechanism in the TV that converts the 60Hz image that is input to something higher using interpolation. We all know this.

That elongation of frames causes frames to be on display for differing lengths of time, thus causing micro stutters that for most are hard to detect. I'm a gamer so it's clear as day to me. When I watch movies with MediaBrowser Theater (and "Smooth Motion"), I cannot detect this at all. I have no idea what it's doing or how. Perhaps, it's interpolating the frames to minimize the stutter effect before the video is sent to the TV? Who knows; but it's something that's keeping me from using the main XBMC player along with a dozen of my friends who have similar set ups. We all prefer using MediaBrowser's player, but XBMC's interface for this reason (MedieBrowser's interface sucks).

[lmyllari]

99% of TVs only take 60Hz as an input.

I don't think that is correct. Any European set will accept both 50 and 60Hz input, and 24Hz is not that rare either. The three US sets I've been working with (a high end Panasonic plasma, two inexpensive Samsung LCDs) all take 24Hz. There was already a pretty long list here before it was discontinued (and only sets that supported it without 3:2 pulldown were included).

Are you sure your TV doesn't accept 24Hz input? Some sets support it, but don't claim that in the EDID block.

If you're forced to use 60Hz, there is no way around it. You can do motion processing in the source or the TV (which can probably do it better), but you will sacrifice quality.

As far as I know, MadVR just blends frames. That might somewhat work on an LCD that won't be able to switch pictures that fast anyway..

In my opinion, a good TV and real 24p is the only way to go.

[TylerD004]

99% of TVs only take 60Hz as an input.

I don't think that is correct. Any European set will accept both 50 and 60Hz input, and 24Hz is not that rare either.

That's correct. I didn't want to get into a long thing about this, but yes I'm aware of all of that. However, 24Hz is not good enough as the film still subjectively (to everyone I know) look better at 60Hz with Smooth Motion enabled VS 24Hz standard.

Are you sure your TV doesn't accept 24Hz input?

Yes, mine supports 24Hz and I've tested it extensively. It's good, but not perfect.

As far as I know, MadVR just blends frames. That might somewhat work on an LCD that won't be able to switch pictures that fast anyway..

In my opinion, a good TV and real 24p is the only way to go.

Test MediaBrowser with those options at 60Hz yourself. You may be surprised. It is definitively better. I can't find one person to disagree.

[lmyllari]

That's correct. I didn't want to get into a long thing about this, but yes I'm aware of all of that. However, 24Hz is not good enough as the film still subjectively (to everyone I know) look better at 60Hz with Smooth Motion enabled VS 24Hz standard.

What TVs are you testing with?

Test MediaBrowser with those options at 60Hz yourself. You may be surprised. It is definitively better. I can't find one person to disagree.

If somebody would like to demo them for me, I'll be happy to take a look, but MadVR is not available on my platforms.


edit: it should be possible to simulate this with avisynth's ConvertFPS - would someone make a sample video?
edit2: looks like there's a yuv4mpeg tool that can do this, maybe i'll give it a try

[TylerD004]

What TVs are you testing with?

I'm using 3. A Samsung UN65H7150, Vizio M652I-B2, and a Sony KDL65W950B. However, in all cases, I turn game mode on so that I can see the true output from the HTPCs.

[TylerD004]

edit: it should be possible to simulate this with avisynth's ConvertFPS - would someone make a sample video?
edit2: looks like there's a yuv4mpeg tool that can do this, maybe i'll give it a try

That would be awesome!

[lmyllari]

That would be awesome!

I PM'ed you a link to a sample I made using yuvfps. Let me know what you think.

[Ned Scott]

Are there other neat features in MadVR that would be applicable to XBMC?

YES! Smooth Video. I've been testing out other media portals that do support MadVR and on my HTPC (Intel NUC HD5000), MediaBrowser Theater video is silky. With native XBMC 13.1, it looks fine, but it's not crazy smooth looking like the other player. Also, MPC-HT with MadVR and Smooth Video is definitely smoother than XBMC, but still not as smooth as MediaBrowser. I can't figure out why. If you can figure that out and get it into XBMC, we're done. We'll have the best of all worlds.

* Ned Scott throws up

[Ned Scott]

Smooth motion is not something anyone should ever apply generically to a video. Think of it like a filter, like sharpening an image. Sometimes it can make things seem better. Sometimes it really is better. However, a generic application of such a filter will almost always degrade quality.

Even with that said, smooth motion is a placebo. You cannot magically pull frames out of the proverbial ass. It works great on panning shots, but fast action or even normal movement in a comedy, it looks horrific. You get this fuzzy soap opera effect, and it just looks disjointed and wrong. There are very few ideas that I will strongly dismiss on these forums, but this is one of them. Your brain does a better job at filling in the blanks than your TV ever could. Your brain is not getting any new information, and often you are getting a distorted picture every other frame because of the smooth motion processing. In TV sales it's practically a scam when you see "120hz" and "240hz" TVs.

I just can't say this enough, but it's a placebo. Just like blowing out the base in a sound system, some people are convinced it's "better", no matter how much it distorts the original media.