[Tolriq]

Well I guess this is where head in the sand occurs

There's a problem for sure for a 1 million active user base.

Solution 1 : Let's find some proof that those numbers are not representative and ignore them completely.

Solution 2 : Maybe there's a problem, since we can't trust those external number, maybe we should do something to have the data in the future to be able to address this potential problem and many others.

I'll let you make choices, but I did always choose solution 2 for Yatse and it was worth it, because I had many false assumptions and real data helped me having a solid app with higher rating than 95% of the apps in the category.

[Koying]

Solution 1 : Let's find some proof that those numbers are not representative and ignore them completely.

Points is our numbers don't show the same thing as yours, and you imply that your stats are more representative, while I indeed proved they are not, I think.

Solution 2 : Maybe there's a problem, since we can't trust those external number, maybe we should do something to have the data in the future to be able to address this potential problem and many others.

We've already had this discussion internally and we agreed on a 100% no-tracking policy, for better and worse.

[Tolriq]

Solution 1 : Let's find some proof that those numbers are not representative and ignore them completely.

Points is our numbers don't show the same thing as yours, and you imply that your stats are more representative, while I indeed proved they are not, I think.

I never said that my stats are more representative ... I said that stats about 1 million user are representative. And that stat about 30% of your user base are representative.

You are telling that since Android are more representative from your stats and that Android update more, there's no problem on non Android device. Don't you see the problem of such statement ?

I'm telling you that this is not the correct way to see the picture.

You can continue to say all is OK for Android users, Android user are our biggest users, why bother to analyse the data and see eventual problems about all the others ?

[Koying]

I never said that my stats are more representative ... I said that stats about 1 million user are representative. And that stat about 30% of your user base are representative.

Well, first point of divergence. You say that 30% of active Kodi users use Yatse. Based on rough numbers without random assumptions, that'd be 10%.

You are telling that since Android are more representative from your stats and that Android update more, there's no problem on non Android device. Don't you see the problem of such statement ?

Err... Didn't say anything like this. I said I assume (and it seems verified) than typical Android box users won't use Yatse, as they have a physical remote. 10% of 1M = 100K, vs. at least 3M.
If anything, I said your stats are *only* valid for *non* android, which *might* represent 50% of the Kodi userbase.

You're building conclusions on shaky grounds is all I'm trying to say.
But yeah, remove android from the picture altogether and you might have a case.

[braz]

My guess is these are the folks using the fully-loaded boxes (e.g., pirate addons) and they don't want to break their "build" by installing the new version.

+1
Just check for people complaining that having Kodi on Google Play auto-updated their Android Kodi box. .

That's a bit of an unfair generalization. I don't think I posted here about it, but I was fairly miffed when my family's android tablets auto-updated. Nothing to do with piracy, it's because for the previous 7 or 8 years I'd updated manually so I wasn't expecting it. There's always a risk of things breaking when updating.
I might have misremembered - wouldn't be the first time - but IIRC builds I installed via .apk downloads from here updated via the play store. Am I imagining that?

Could be, I can only speak from personal experience. As a skinner, I continue to get feature requests for the Helix version of my skin, though it has slowed down lately. When I point out that feature X has already been added to a later version, the response I often get is that they don't want to update for fear of breaking their community build or banned addon, etc.

I previously used my real name in the forum and I would get support requests on my personal website from folks trying to bypass the forum rules regarding banned addons. I've since changed my handle and these have stopped thankfully.

I have no doubt there are many reasons why some users do not update, I was just pointing out the one that I seem to hear the most.

[Tolriq]

I never said that my stats are more representative ... I said that stats about 1 million user are representative. And that stat about 30% of your user base are representative.

Well, first point of divergence. You say that 30% of active Kodi users use Yatse. Based on rough numbers without random assumptions, that'd be 10%.

You are telling that since Android are more representative from your stats and that Android update more, there's no problem on non Android device. Don't you see the problem of such statement ?

Err... Didn't say anything like this. I said I assume (and it seems verified) than typical Android box users won't use Yatse, as they have a physical remote. 10% of 1M = 100K, vs. at least 3M.
If anything, I said your stats are *only* valid for *non* android, which *might* represent 50% of the Kodi userbase.

You're building conclusions on shaky grounds is all I'm trying to say.
But yeah, remove android from the picture altogether and you might have a case.

You do realize that is is a discussion and that previous post are important to understanding things

Yes from rough math Yatse is 10% ... 30% is the number of users of either Android / IOS remote as I explained earlier, as even if you do not want to extrapolate Yatse over whole user base, you can extrapolate Yatse over all smartphone remote user.

About my conclusion maybe you should read them again and read the ... whole thread....

All the discussion from start is about Yatse users that do not update Kodi. You (yes you ...) said it's all chinese android Kodi boxes and I did bring statistics to prove that no it's not the case. That's it.

Then you forget the whole point and just tried to make the stats means nothing, but yes those stats means something it means than for 30% of you user base 55% of them do not update.

This is a simple fact and you can try to say tons of things against it, it will still be true.

I'm now leaving this thread as I'm speaking to walls, but you may want to read again the thread, and not just assume that because you think something the thread is about that.

[Koying]

Yes from rough math Yatse is 10% ... 30% is the number of users of either Android / IOS remote as I explained earlier, as even if you do not want to extrapolate Yatse over whole user base, you can extrapolate Yatse over all smartphone remote user

Err...Extrapolating from 10% to 30% without any data is quite bold, as Nate pointed out. Stick to your 10%, please.

All the discussion from start is about Yatse users that do not update Kodi. You (yes you ...) said it's all chinese android Kodi boxes and I did bring statistics to prove that no it's not the case. That's it.

Let me quote you again:

On 1 million monthly active users that have anonymous stats activated : 65% (Yes sixty five percent) as still using 14.x or earlier. New version adoption rate is slowing down a lot with each versions and it should be an number to try to watch and analyse, because there's reasons behind those.

It definitely seemed you wanted to generalize the Yatse users situation to the 90% of Kodi users who don't use it, deduce from there that Kodi has a problem, and bombed us with your stats to make your point. Sorry if I was wrong.

The "chinese box" remark was tongue-in-cheek, in case you didn't notice
Fact is those run whatever is on the box when the user bought them, because they mostly have no gplay and common users have no idea how to sideload. That's called mainstream, for better (seldom) or worse (often)

[Tolriq]

Yes from rough math Yatse is 10% ... 30% is the number of users of either Android / IOS remote as I explained earlier, as even if you do not want to extrapolate Yatse over whole user base, you can extrapolate Yatse over all smartphone remote user

Err...Extrapolating from 10% to 30% without any data is quite bold, as Nate pointed out. Stick to your 10%, please.

All the discussion from start is about Yatse users that do not update Kodi. You (yes you ...) said it's all chinese android Kodi boxes and I did bring statistics to prove that no it's not the case. That's it.

Let me quote you again:

On 1 million monthly active users that have anonymous stats activated : 65% (Yes sixty five percent) as still using 14.x or earlier. New version adoption rate is slowing down a lot with each versions and it should be an number to try to watch and analyse, because there's reasons behind those.

It definitely seemed you wanted to generalize the Yatse users situation to the 90% of Kodi users who don't use it, deduce from there that Kodi has a problem, and bombed us with your stats to make your point. Sorry if I was wrong.

The "chinese box" remark was tongue-in-cheek, in case you didn't notice
Fact is those run whatever is on the box when the user bought them, because they mostly have no gplay and common users have no idea how to sideload. That's called mainstream, for better (seldom) or worse (often)

Well I did explain the calculations earlier, memory is short ...10% Yatse, 5% Kore (Number that you announced on the blog ...) 15% iOS official remote (You did announce a long time ago passing the million users, so assuming 1.5M is realistic and may be even higher ....) those are real number not ... extrapolation, I do not take in account any other remotes and there's a lot .... So numbers are way higher I just use the .... number that you do provide and the one I have. So please do not invert roles

This is insane really to see such answers and aggressiveness just to try to prove I'm wrong just because well I can't be right isn't it ?

About the quote you took : Can you see any generalization ? The quote says what it says : For 1 million user that I have data about this is the result .... And yes adoption rate is lower than previously according to the same data I had.

So I'm sorry but I only give fact since the start, you are making up some tragedy around it and see what you want to see, because I'm the bad guy I may not be fluent in English but read again all the posts and you'll see the light.

[Koying]

Well I did explain the calculations earlier, memory is short ...10% Yatse, 5% Kore (Number that you announced on the blog ...) 15% iOS official remote (You did announce a long time ago passing the million users, so assuming 1.5M is realistic and may be even higher ....) those are real number not ... extrapolation, I do not take in account any other remotes and there's a lot .... So numbers are way higher I just use the .... number that you do provide and the one I have. So please do not invert roles

I meant that you extrapolate Yatse stats to the 20% (I just assume this is right) non-Yatse remote users for which you have no data whatsoever.

This is insane really to see such answers and aggressiveness just to try to prove I'm wrong just because well I can't be right isn't it ?

Not a bit of aggressivity on my side, I think. I indeed want to make you understand you're making risky assumptions based on limited data, though.

About the quote you took : Can you see any generalization ? The quote says what it says : For 1 million user that I have data about this is the result .... And yes adoption rate is lower than previously according to the same data I had.

Err, sorry, but the "and it should be an number to try to watch and analyse, because there's reasons behind those." bit definitely seemed a generalization to me. Sorry again if I misunderstood.
If it wasn't, we'll probably need more detailed data about what kind of users are using Yatse to see what's specific about them.

[MrMC]

HAHAHHA, you guys just kill me, forest from the trees. Numbers do not matter.

The simple issue here is IF team-kodi is claiming Android platform support, then FULLY support it or drop it as a platform. No half-way measures, just support it or drop it. Simple decision. Anything else is a disservice to your user base. If the high talent team-kodi devs that are doing the grunt work disagree, then team-kodi has a serious problem with lack of focus and they need to sort this out and decide what direction they want to pursue. This also goes for ALL current and future Kodi supported platforms.

As for the RM games, back in my days, the RM was total dictator over the release. His word was final and everyone agreed to this when they picked/approved that person. When I was a RM, I even held master hostage and frozen to keep everyone focused on getting the release out the door. Sure, devs complained and I listened to their reasoning and made my own decision, good or bad. In the end it worked out pretty well, and the release popped out in a timely fashion.

Focus, it is the only way to deal with projects of this complexity.

[Fry7]

So much for statistics:

- 3 folks in my household
- 5 Windows devices running Kodi, 2 of them on an almost daily basis
- 5 Android devices running Kodi, 2 of them on an almost daily basis, too
- 1 iOS device running Kodi - barely used
- 2 RPis running Kodi, 1 of them in an alomst daily basis as well
- on 3 Android devices Kore as well as Yatse are installed
- on 0 Android devices neither Kore nor Yatse are used...

They simply are there for playing as I really appreciate the work of those folks that are programming them, but as a remote me and my family really want a remote and not a handheld computer that you need to look at to hit the desired button...

As for the discussion going on here: please do not play with numbers, I find it annoying. Fact is that one very precious dev decided to leave the team because the team wasn't able to moderate discrepancies that popped up because of 1 (!) quick-and-dirty fix - so I guess Team Kodi should consider implementing a moderator.
You already have your own forum thread for stuff like this (http://forum.kodi.tv/forumdisplay.php?fid=183), but the last post placed there dates 2015-11-10 - so to your userbase it seems that there were rants going on behind closed doors.
Please open them. Who knows what your userbase will have to contribute to at least calm down situations that might lead to devs leaving this awesome project.

My 2 cents.

[Dark_Slayer]

Yes from rough math Yatse is 10% ... 30% is the number of users of either Android / IOS remote as I explained earlier, as even if you do not want to extrapolate Yatse over whole user base, you can extrapolate Yatse over all smartphone remote user

Why? Android vs iPhone users are quite different IMO. Even Yatse vs Kore users would be sketchy grounds for correlation, and of course some of us use all three

[Ned Scott]

Well, no matter how we slice the numbers, the need to improve the Kodi project remains the same. Even if just for the sanity of the team and hard-core community.

Sure, this will always be there, we will never be happy or not hungry to change/improve things. But sometimes we might want to learn to appreciate what work has been done and what is working/has already been achieved. Even if it's not the perfect solution.

What I mean is, the desire to improve the project itself, not the application or code. I'm sure there is a desire for that as well, but the big thing to take away from recent events is more about how people work together, and finding out how that can be improved.

[Ned Scott]

Holy crap, stop talking about statistics. I don't entirely agree with what universal said when he started this thread, but he was trying to bring attention to something he thought was an issue, and that issue was not statistics.

Can we please stop talking about what statistics are statistically more statistical?

[Robotica]

Hopefully Koying and Fritsch clear out their differences to continue working on Kodi. I even believe Fritsch should be the President since he has shown the right FOSS attitude most of the time. And Koying has been great for Android.

@Davilla: Yes, back in the days you and your friends ran this project those problems where born. Whether Android was in or not, you guys created terrible governance and attitude around this project by showing wrong example. Fixing Foundations goals is step 1, like i told you at the start of XBMC Foundation. Then users know to what they contribute. Up until today, all holes in this project creates future troubles and I still see a lot of them. You can't fool all of the community all of the time...

My advise: Start sharing Foundations goals to better devs commitment and start appreciating community input. Then maybe communities trust in the philosophy around this project can be restored; now they only want to USE the software, since it's great.

Dropping Android support seems silly since it's the biggest platform at the lowest price for consumers. Then you will create a fork with, in the end, a larger userbase.

Again, it's silly the good guys walk out. If you wan't to clean this project, start swiping the stairs from top to bottom.