Selling Xboxes with XBMC pre-installed Online?

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Adam Naisbitt Offline
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Question  Selling Xboxes with XBMC pre-installed Online?
Post: #1
Hey.

I've set up a website to sell Xboxes with XBMC installed (http://www.xbmc.adamnaisbitt.com) and have received a couple of flames about what I'm doing. I've responded to the people in question but wanted to come on here and see where the land lies so to speak.

My understanding is that the GPL enables me to charge for the service of installing XBMC onto an Xbox, and obviously I can charge for the Xbox itself. For this I'm charging £47 (thats Xbox and installation) and a couple of quid to add dashboards/scripts etc... I dont think this is enough to warrent accusations of selling the code! (In fact, at the minute a I'm selling a fully set up Xbox with XBMC for £23.50 - that's a £3.50 profit on what I paid for the machines!)

I have posted links to this website, xbox-skins, xboxscripts, the GNU GPL and the source code on my site (last two just added after an email). Hell, I'm even advising people to download stuff themselves rather than paying us to do it.

Is there something I'm missing?

Last thing I want to do is step on some-ones toes, but I don't see where the problem is. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Lastly, I'm looking to sort this out properly (hence coming on here), so please don't flame this thread as I ain't gonna spend my time answering stupid posts (one email I got asked me how long it took me to write 2 million lines of code - why waste my time? Confused)

I respect what you guys are doing and last thing I want to do is offend. But if I ain't doing anything wrong I'd appreciate the say so.

Please let me know, I'll try to log in tomorrow to see if anyone's posted.

Adam
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Jezz_X Offline
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Post: #2
Well I went and had a look at your site and you actually mis represent a few things on this page http://www.xbmc.adamnaisbitt.com/category-2.htm
you name the skins as
Product: "Apple TV" Dashboard (Awsome!)
Peoduct "Microsoft Media Centre" Dashboard
Product: "Xbox 360" Dashboard
these give the people false impression that you are actually installing products made by microsoft and apple on there xboxs when infact it is XBMC with skins on it so in effect you are actually lieing about the product you provide and I'm sure apple and MS would not be happy with it

Also you are selling the peoples work who did the skins as extra and providing no credit to them that they made it at all on that page
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Adam Naisbitt Offline
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Post: #3
Jezz_X Wrote:Well I went and had a look at your site and you actually mis represent a few things on this page http://www.xbmc.adamnaisbitt.com/category-2.htm
you name the skins as
Product: "Apple TV" Dashboard (Awsome!)
Peoduct "Microsoft Media Centre" Dashboard
Product: "Xbox 360" Dashboard
these give the people false impression that you are actually installing products made by microsoft and apple on there xboxs when infact it is XBMC with skins on it so in effect you are actually lieing about the product you provide and I'm sure apple and MS would not be happy with it

Also you are selling the peoples work who did the skins as extra and providing no credit to them that they made it at all on that page

Will be ammended
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Adam Naisbitt Offline
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Post: #4
(Cant find how to edit a post?)

Ammended
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jmarshall Offline
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Post: #5
Hi there,

I don't have a problem with you selling a service for XBMC (or even a copy of it on CD or whatever) - this is fully allowed by the GPL.

What is not obvious at all from your site is the fact that XBMC is produced by people other than yourself. It's also not obvious from your site that people may obtain XBMC for free, or that there is a huge community of people out there who are happy to provide free service and support.

As far as I could tell, the only links to the real information are on the "Policies" page. This page has good information, and IMO it needs to be more centerstage in the site, rather than off on a page that has the lowest likelihood of being clicked on.

I know your excited about the possibility of earning a few bucks whilst "spreading the word" - I respectfully ask that you consider reorganizing the site to better indicate the service you provide, rather than what everybody else in the community is providing.

Cheers,
Jonathan

Always read the XBMC online-manual, FAQ and search the forum before posting.
Do not e-mail XBMC-Team members directly asking for support. Read/follow the forum rules.
For troubleshooting and bug reporting please make sure you read this first.


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(This post was last modified: 2008-01-15 03:50 by jmarshall.)
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Adam Naisbitt Offline
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Post: #6
jmarshall Wrote:Hi there,

I don't have a problem with you selling a service for XBMC (or even a copy of it on CD or whatever) - this is fully allowed by the GPL.

What is not obvious at all from your site is the fact that XBMC is produced by people other than yourself. It's also not obvious from your site that people may obtain XBMC for free, or that there is a huge community of people out there who are happy to provide free service and support.

As far as I could tell, the only links to the real information are on the "Policies" page. This page has good information, and IMO it needs to be more centerstage in the site, rather than off on a page that has the lowest likelihood of being clicked on.

I know your excited about the possibility of earning a few bucks whilst "spreading the word" - I respectfully ask that you consider reorganizing the site to better indicate the service you provide, rather than what everybody else in the community is providing.

Cheers,
Jonathan

Thank you for that. I'm not going to get chance to look at it until this evening but I'll rework the sections under "About XBMC" in light of your comments. I can't go too overboard with the proposed changes (I'm not worried it'll lead more people to "do it themselves", but I think it will confuse people who don't have any understanding/interest in the bare bones of XBMC), but I will repost when the site is amended again and pm you. If you then get chance to review and leave me feedback I would be appreciative.

Same goes for anyone else.

Adam
(PS. I appreciate that feedback is being kept constructive)
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ultrabrutal Offline
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Post: #7
Of course some of the profits should go into donations if you pricetag your work accordingly. I mean you are profitting off 100's or even 1000's of JM's, spiff's,elupus' and others work. Jet again XBMC is based on other opensource projects like mplayer for instance.
So there are many to thank for their work
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Gamester17 Offline
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Post: #8
jmarshall Wrote:What is not obvious at all from your site is the fact that XBMC is produced by people other than yourself. It's also not obvious from your site that people may obtain XBMC for free, or that there is a huge community of people out there who are happy to provide free service and support.
I like second that to start. XBMC is free and open source software so it should not be misrepresented as something that cost money.

I also like to inform you that what you are doing is most likely illegal, as you are in a form selling XDK compiled binaries, (executables compiled with Microsoft Xbox Deevelopment Kit, the XDK is officially only available to Microsoft approved developers, and those Microsoft approved developers sign a terms-of-use contract which state that they may not publish or distribute Xbox binaries outside their company).

http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/wiki/?title=XDK
Quote:Microsoft SDK (System Development Kit) for Xbox (also known as the XDK)

The XDK compiler is only available to Microsoft approved developers/programmers and is used togeter with Microsoft Visual Studio .NET to compile source code into Xbox binaries (executables) that can run on Microsoft Xbox game-console. You can not run source code alone on the Xbox, please read this (link) why!

XBMC source code is in C/C++, Assembly and DirectX programming-language. XBMC require XDK 5778 or 5849 (5933 is reported to work, but is not supported) and Microsoft Visual Studio .NET 7.1 (2003).
Microsoft Visual Studio .NET 7.1 (2003) can be purchased anywhere, but in order to get the XDK you must to register and be approved as an official Xbox developer (though even then you may not release compiled Xbox excutables/binaries/XBE's as you wish, you can only publish Xbox excutables/binaries/XBE's as part of a Microsoft approved game for the Xbox that can be purchased in retail-stores). For information on how to apply for the XDK see this site).

Note! Yes the XDK is also available illegaly (pirated copies) on the internet, private FTP-sites and P2P-networks. However Team-XBMC, for obvious legal reasons, can not help you obtain a such illegal pirate copy. We can only assume that XBMC users/developers have got a legal XDK copy and only use XBMC for personal eduction. THE XBOXMEDIACENTER PROJECT AND ALL XBMC MEMBERS DO NOT CONDONE PIRACY! See the XBMC Disclaimer and Term of Use information.
More information on the XDK here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XDK
This was also discussed earlier this week in this other topic thread: http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=30620

Jezz_X Wrote:Well I went and had a look at your site and you actually mis represent a few things on this page http://www.xbmc.adamnaisbitt.com/category-2.htm
you name the skins as
Product: "Apple TV" Dashboard (Awsome!)
Peoduct "Microsoft Media Centre" Dashboard
Product: "Xbox 360" Dashboard
these give the people false impression that you are actually installing products made by microsoft and apple on there xboxs when infact it is XBMC with skins on it so in effect you are actually lieing about the product you provide and I'm sure apple and MS would not be happy with it
I agree. So along with the approiate credits you want to change the names to the skins proper name and a comment explaining that it is (also note that they are skins that change the apperence of XBMC, and not standalone "products", it is XBMC that is the dashboard, not the skin):
"xTV (an "Apple TV" skin replica)
MC360 (an "Xbox 360" skin replica)
etc.

Always read the XBMC online-manual, FAQ and search the forum before posting.
Do not e-mail XBMC-Team members directly asking for support. Read/follow the forum rules.
For troubleshooting and bug reporting please make sure you read this first.
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Geeba Offline
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Post: #9
Think if I'd written the dashboards ie xTV and 360MC etc I'd probably get the hump with you charging for them as an extra.... just my 2p
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Adam Naisbitt Offline
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Post: #10
ultrabrutal Wrote:Of course some of the profits should go into donations if you pricetag your work accordingly. I mean you are profitting off 100's or even 1000's of JM's, spiff's,elupus' and others work. Jet again XBMC is based on other opensource projects like mplayer for instance.
So there are many to thank for their work

GPL means I'm free to use the software and charge for a service to install it - with no obligation to pay/donate etc. I am a very open guy and more than happy to see people right, however I would ask how much you have contributed to the XBMC code and how much you feel it is fair for me to pay you?


Geeba Wrote:Think if I'd written the dashboards ie xTV and 360MC etc I'd probably get the hump with you charging for them as an extra.... just my 2p

I'm not charging for them as an extra, I'm charging for a service of installing them.
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Gamester17 Offline
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Post: #11
I still think the argument about on your 'front-page' misrepresent what you are selling is valid. Your 'front-page' does still misleadingly read like you are selling a commercial software and that you charge for that software, not that you charge for the service of installing free software, ...in other words I classify that page as false advertisement.

Quote:[b]False advertising is the use of deliberately false statements or deception in advertising, in order to gain a commercial advantage. As advertising has the potential to persuade people into commercial transactions that they might otherwise avoid,

Misrepresentations[/b]
Utilizing words such as descriptive terms or location terms to increase the perceived value of a product.

PS! a Media Centre and a Media Center is not the same thing. A centre is usually a building or place like a "business centre", a "youth centre", or a "arts and culture centre", etc. (while a media center is a multimedia software or a piece of home entertainment equipment).

Always read the XBMC online-manual, FAQ and search the forum before posting.
Do not e-mail XBMC-Team members directly asking for support. Read/follow the forum rules.
For troubleshooting and bug reporting please make sure you read this first.
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Adam Naisbitt Offline
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Post: #12
Gamester17 Wrote:I still think the argument about on your 'front-page' misrepresent what you are selling is valid. Your 'front-page' does still misleadingly read like you are selling a commercial software and that you charge for that software, not that you charge for the service of installing free software, ...in other words I classify that page as false advertisement.



PS! a Media Centre and a Media Center is not the same thing. A centre is usually a building or place like a "business centre", a "youth centre", or a "arts and culture centre", etc. (while a media center is a multimedia software or a piece of home entertainment equipment).

False advertising, spelling errors, insistence I make donations... No

I came on here to give people chance to raise concerns about any potential misuse of the GPL, not so everyone can chip in with their thoughts, comments and general musings. Bottom line is I sorted most of the issues out about the GPL with spiff via email and this post was more a gesture of good will and an opportunity to engage with the people who have a vested interest in the XBMC GPL.

So from now on, if I'm in direct breach of the GPL or another copyright that YOU own - please let me know. Otherwise, please refrain from posting on this thread.

And of course, I know you dont have to refrain from posting - but if people decide it's best to flame this thread then I'll simply stop checking it and stop responding to any GPL related emails I get. It's that simple.

I'd like an open channel to talk with people who have a vested interest. If others want to stop that happening, so be it.

Adam
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ultrabrutal Offline
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Post: #13
wtf!? I don't know the laws in your country but most places it's illegal to sell hacked and stolen software. I'm talking about copyrighted Microsoft BIOS plus binaries using illegal copies of XDK.

I see no flaming in this thread at all. All are good points... Perhaps your original post was about free adverticing and trying to make a few bucks?
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Adam Naisbitt Offline
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Post: #14
ultrabrutal Wrote:wtf!? I don't know the laws in your country but most places it's illegal to sell hacked and stolen software. I'm talking about copyrighted Microsoft BIOS plus binaries using illegal copies of XDK.

I see no flaming in this thread at all. All are good points... Perhaps your original post was about free adverticing and trying to make a few bucks?

1. My understanding is as the software (XBMC) is under GPL then any responsibility for infringed copyright lies with the author, not the vendor. I don't know if it is/isn't "illegal" and am taking it on good faith that as the software is licensed its legal for use and distribution.

Plus, if the software IS illegal, then (to my understanding) under section 7 of the GPL you would HAVE to stop developing/distibuting it. So by the very fact you continue to develop/distribute the software I can only assume it IS legal. Confused

2. I was not refering to existing flaming, I just anticipated my bluntness getting a host of flames in reply and didn't want to have leave a good channel of communicating with the developers/copyright holders.

3. As for free advertising - if you check the other XBMC forums you'll see I haven't posted any threads on them. The only reason I posted one one here is as spiff emailed from this site and I've taken it as being the best point of contact to speak with the software's developers. There's not much use me advertising XBMCs for sale to the people who wrote the code is there? Wink

I'm not here to waste anyone's time, and neither I am here to waste mine. I'll give this a few more days and then may draw a line under it.
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ultrabrutal Offline
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Post: #15
1. xbmc source is GPL and nothing illegal about it, however to compile the Xbox binaries you need the XDK which I'm pretty sure you don't own, plus it needs to be signed by Microsoft to even run on an unmoddified Xbox. When you modify an Xbox (not talking for Linux here) you use a hacked Microsoft BIOS containing copyrighted code in order to even run XBMC. No one is using XBMC for Linux on the Xbox platform. That just does not make sense

You have to learn the difference between GPL'ed source and the illegal Xbox binaries and firmwares/bioses which you are distributing.

3. This is a community for USERS and developers of XBMC. The users outnumber the devs but a magnitude of several 10.000's. Users come here to get help on modding (wrong place but they still come), help on installation and help on setup and such. Some of these users might take the easy road and pay you rather than learn for themselves...
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