Flash and Silverlight support
#1
Just read Elan's interview over at Automated Home and had a thought...

I agree with the overall thought that we are slowly moving into a space where the majority of content will be streamed. In fact, I am in the process of developing a platform currently that attempts to do just that with some very valuable content that currently can't be legally shared online. I will be using Flash to do this.

Currently XBMC supports flv, wmv and mp4 in all their various flavors. However, Adobe has recently shipped Flash Media Server 3.0, which introduces RTMPE streaming encryption, as well as encrypted playlist and token authentication support. Similarly, the "final" version of Microsoft Silverlight is expected to include Windows Media DRM. As mainstream media slowly starts moving their content legitimately on the internet, it is widely expected to use one or the other format.

As these are obstensibly DRM formats, there is no chance they can be directly integrated into an open source project like XBMC. However, as XBMC moves from the closed XBox environment to the more open environments of computer platforms, the ability to work with the already-installed closed frameworks Flash and the forthcoming Silverlight become more of a possibility.

(I should note that Flash is available for Linux, OSX and Windows, but Silverlight is not planning a Windows version.)

As a developer of a platform that is using encrypted Flash transport, I would love for nothing more than to develop an XBMC plug-in. As with anyone working with copyright-sensitive "big company"-sourced media, I absolutely must use DRM. (My business model is also 100% ad supported, so I need to ensure that at structure works properly.) Would it be at all feasable to integrate a swf or silverlight framework within the non-XBox XBMC builds to be able to play these formats?

I would like to point to Jereon Wijering's excellent FLV Media Player and his new WMV Player as open-source, creative-commons license players that might be able to be integrated.
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#2
Erk, I meant Silverlight is not planning a Linux version. Typed too fast. :p
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#3
Thanks for the well-formed thoughts, jsevakis. Mono's Moonlight is the way to Silverlight on Linux. Once we get past some of the pressing stability issues and highly needed features, support for DRM'd video is definitely something interesting to think about.

-elan
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#4
you know... I just had a thought... What if XBMC included webkit support into needed areas? Then it would be able to use native flash/sliverlight plugin support. No half working linux port would be needed... Would make Scripts section kick ass if you could also include flash games, etc. yeah just a thought.
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#5
DRM for video will fail just like DRM for audio did (fact).
Powers that be, are just too stubborn to realize this, but wants to waste another couple of Zillion dollars on the venture, and Microsoft et others are happy to oblige.

Is it really a waste when a whole industry and alot of research capital is spent on it ? I guess one can argue this
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#6
I think the biggest question is do we try and get silverlight support working by the time netflix implements this for it's VOD service... forget if DRM is dead in the future, it's here now. If we could somehow exploit this and provide streaming VOD in a player that only requires a netflix account... hell people would be flocking. This is all assuming it happens, or you could wait for a non DRM solution that provides VOD easily to to users to be available... sometime.
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#7
Agreed -- DRM is here now and while many don't agree with it, few companies are even considering doing away with it anytime soon. (Believe me, I work in content licensing.) Not just Netflix but Hulu.com, BBC, and a host of others that will be launching very soon. Supporting these would be beyond great for XBMC, and really help drive public awareness and support.

At this time, very few companies are even willing to consider putting their content on the web before it can be secured against ripping in some way. It's unfortunate, but unlike music DRM will always be around to some extent in the video world, as it has been since the beginning of the home video format starting with the Cartrivision in 1968. It's lasted 40 years now (and film-based copyright protection methods date back to the late 1910's). I don't see any reasons why such ideology would change now. (PM me if you wish to discuss further -- I don't wish to derail this thread into a DRM debate.)

Of course these methods can always be cracked, but in terms of what's good for XBMC I doubt that using these methods would help the project in the long run. Doing so would effectively prevent any company that doesn't fancy itself an outlaw from working with it publicly. The DMCA might be evil, but it's still the law, and running afoul of it is a bad idea.
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#8
Fuck DRM, Fuck DMCA.

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/
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#9
Well that settles that.
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#10
<2cents>
I think this discussion is looking at this from the wrong angle, I think we all agree drm=bad and we are only trying to decide if we should try to support it in XBMC or not. I think not. If XBMC in all it's different incarnations can achieve the holy grail of becoming the de-facto standard media player for htpc/ mac/ wintel/ unix/ handhelds/ consoles etc. (wouldn't that be great) and it makes a point of _not_ supporting any drm formats it will generate a great deal of pressure on the media companies to abandon drm. There is no point producing the stuff if no one can watch it on the device they choose to use to consume media (there's no point producing a minidisk version if 99% of people uses cd's). If we support it we are telling them that we think it is ok for them to use it. Market forces are the only thing that will ever make them change.
</2cents>
I'm a lurker, not a fighter!
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#11
Somewhat putting the cart before the horse, ChoccyHobNob.

XBMC is in no way anywhere close to being the de-facto standard media player currently. It has zero sway with the media industry of any kind. It won't be, ever, until mainstream content can play on it. THEN it has a chance. Only at THAT time, once enough (and the right) people are actually listening and stand to lose something that they care about, can one think about making a political statement.

As the success of iTunes Store and the lack of sales impact on DVDs encoded with RipGuard has proven, most customers really don't care that much about DRM as long as it's not too invasive and the thing works. Idealism is lovely, but people only care about your opinions if you're successful.
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#12
I didn't say XBMC was the defacto standard, I said it could be, it doesn't need to have any sway with the media companies, it just needs to be popular with the public, the public have sway with the media companies (when there are enough of them all saying the same thing)

It doesn't require the ability to play mainstream drm protected media to become the standard, it just has to be the best/easiest/cheapest and be able to play everything the public downloads. The public could care less that their media is protected as long as they can get the latest episode of lost, it's not until they try to do something that breaks the drm and they can't do it that they realise the mistake they have made, by then it's too late. We "the informed" know what a bad thing drm is and the xbmc developers (and htpc software developers generally) are in a position to do something about it.

Digital delivery is the next big thing and it won't be long before it hits the mainstream; when it does, if nothing convergent supports drm'd formats the public will demand media that works with the platform they wish to use. If almost everything is supported by one box but they need half a dozen other boxes just for one source each they will very quickly demand that the one box supports the sources and the sources support the box. If the box (and all the alternative convergent boxes) don't move, the sources have to; or accept that the people will start finding illegal sources to get the same content.

In the UK recently, Virgin Media, the Main (only?) cable company had a falling out with Sky the main satellite company, as a result Virgin lost access to all of Sky's non-premium channels. Sky One broadcasts "Lost". A great number of people (though admittedly not all, Virgin lost thousands of customers) learned how to use torrents so they could get the latest episodes, it was easier than go through the pain of switching from cable to satellite, no one cared that it was illegal. Give them what they want, or they will break the law to get it.

The success of itms is entirely down to convenience, it has nothing to do with drm'd content. If it were easier to p2p than it is to pay 79p from itms, people would get their media that way, they could care less about the legality, morality or cost (within reason) it just has to be easier. Ripguard won't be big news to the people until they try to convert all their dvd media to digital for playing through their htpc, then they will find they can't, even though they have a legal right to do so and the lawsuits will start flying.

This is getting quite badly OT so I'm stopping here.

jsevakis Wrote:Somewhat putting the cart before the horse, ChoccyHobNob.

XBMC is in no way anywhere close to being the de-facto standard media player currently. It has zero sway with the media industry of any kind. It won't be, ever, until mainstream content can play on it. THEN it has a chance. Only at THAT time, once enough (and the right) people are actually listening and stand to lose something that they care about, can one think about making a political statement.

As the success of iTunes Store and the lack of sales impact on DVDs encoded with RipGuard has proven, most customers really don't care that much about DRM as long as it's not too invasive and the thing works. Idealism is lovely, but people only care about your opinions if you're successful.
I'm a lurker, not a fighter!
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#13
Well, yes, we could argue all day about whether or not XBMC has the "power" to change things. From my position I don't see it happening, and I am simply requesting Flash support so that I can support XBMC under the limitations I've been given. That's all. Silverlight would be nice too, if the means to the end are similar, as I'd love to watch Netflix video over XBMC.
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#14
jsevakis Wrote:Well, yes, we could argue all day about whether or not XBMC has the "power" to change things. From my position I don't see it happening, and I am simply requesting Flash support so that I can support XBMC under the limitations I've been given. That's all. Silverlight would be nice too, if the means to the end are similar, as I'd love to watch Netflix video over XBMC.

I hate DRM as much as anyone, but on-demand rentals is one of the only places where it makes at least some sense.

It seems like Netflix (at least initially) will be the most widely-used service out of the gate.

Apple TV 2.0 is MUCH more useful than the previous version, as it now integrates with Flickr for your background photos, Apple movie trailers, and the iTunes store for rentals.

I won't buy media with DRM, but I don't mind renting it that way.

Netflix support really could make XBMC boxes a mainstream thing.

-Wes
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#15
Assuming that someone offers an open API for allowing playback of their DRM, I don't see a problem implementation-wise, but this is extremely unlikely, or at least is extremely unlikely to be made available to opensource applications.

The politics/ethics/morality or whatever is a separate issue, and discussion is moot until such an API is available, and someone with the skill and inclination bothers to do something with it.
Always read the XBMC online-manual, FAQ and search the forum before posting.
Do not e-mail XBMC-Team members directly asking for support. Read/follow the forum rules.
For troubleshooting and bug reporting please make sure you read this first.


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