2008-05-23, 02:10
As a new community member, I'm sorry to see this happen. I run both Linux and OS X (all on Apple hardware) and have enjoyed being able to use the same database no matter what OS I happened to be running.
2008-05-23, 02:24
My concern is for the users. If something is team driven and team members come and go the project can hopefully stay fairly on track.
If some if more focused or driven by one individual and that person decides to leave is hard for the reaming people to keep things going.
Elan took on a load by starting this up and getting it going. And many people have come on board since, and some have left. But now that it's forked if Elan were to have no part in it (at a point in the future) where does that leave the rest of the OSXBMC team and the users. Hopefully not not up the creak without a paddle.
I'd like to know there are some solid legs to stand on long.
You can't get someone hooked and then leave them feeling like their supplier might get out of the business without some clean plan.
=)
If some if more focused or driven by one individual and that person decides to leave is hard for the reaming people to keep things going.
Elan took on a load by starting this up and getting it going. And many people have come on board since, and some have left. But now that it's forked if Elan were to have no part in it (at a point in the future) where does that leave the rest of the OSXBMC team and the users. Hopefully not not up the creak without a paddle.
I'd like to know there are some solid legs to stand on long.
You can't get someone hooked and then leave them feeling like their supplier might get out of the business without some clean plan.
=)
2008-05-23, 05:17
Jeremeymc, we're committed, we won't leave you high and dry, the XBMC-team is welcome to access our code and implement it in their products as they wish, as jmarshall noted there will be compatibility between both versions that will remain.
2008-05-23, 10:52
ChoccyHobNob Wrote:@Jezz_X which xbmc team member left? Are they back now?
Its not position to say if they wish to come forward they can do it and no they have not come back or said they would as far as I know
The whole point of my post was to give people a proper timeline to the small snippets that elan posted on his blog that really only seemed to come across as us being the bad guys and completely bulling them
Yes we may have handled it wrong ( I can admit it ) but so did they and I just got sick of all the people on elans blog thinking they are 100% in the right from the few snippets that elan posted that should of just remained internal
2008-05-23, 12:03
I am glad that you are going along with the product on a different road!
It's a very important project for the mac in my opinion. I like to help the team in any way I can (Graphics, testing, function suggestions, some money etc.)
It's a very important project for the mac in my opinion. I like to help the team in any way I can (Graphics, testing, function suggestions, some money etc.)
2008-05-23, 16:43
I was surprised to see this go on for so long.
All of the ports should be hosted from xbmc.org. Any blogs, forums, bug tracking should be available via xbmc.org. It just keeps things nicely associated.
If one platform wants total control of the source, then give them their own branch.
It will be disappointing to see wasted resources on two separate projects. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and something can be worked out.
Personally, I blame the mac mini
The OSX port has received a lot of attention - quite possibly more than the other ports.
Also, some of the articles out there positioned the mac port group as the sole developers of the project. It may have ruffled some feathers. To resolve this, a public relations role should be created (not sure if there is one already) to field any requests from the media in order to give a common/agreed-upon message.
All of the ports should be hosted from xbmc.org. Any blogs, forums, bug tracking should be available via xbmc.org. It just keeps things nicely associated.
If one platform wants total control of the source, then give them their own branch.
It will be disappointing to see wasted resources on two separate projects. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and something can be worked out.
Personally, I blame the mac mini
The OSX port has received a lot of attention - quite possibly more than the other ports.Also, some of the articles out there positioned the mac port group as the sole developers of the project. It may have ruffled some feathers. To resolve this, a public relations role should be created (not sure if there is one already) to field any requests from the media in order to give a common/agreed-upon message.
2008-05-23, 20:31
Jezz_X Wrote:Its not position to say if they wish to come forward they can do it and no they have not come back or said they would as far as I know
The whole point of my post was to give people a proper timeline to the small snippets that elan posted on his blog that really only seemed to come across as us being the bad guys and completely bulling them
Yes we may have handled it wrong ( I can admit it ) but so did they and I just got sick of all the people on elans blog thinking they are 100% in the right from the few snippets that elan posted that should of just remained internal
That's a shame, I hope whoever left reconsiders their decision when they have had time to cool off and the dust has settled.
I got the timeline, there were a couple of things in there I was unaware of that maybe colour my opinion of the situation a little. It's also fairly clear where each side of the split acted rashly. I don't think any 'side' is 'to blame' for this, its just a shame that everyone was unable to work together.
There's little point in recriminations now, what's done is done, everyone should just move on with the whole forking thing. From what I've gathered about the amount of collaboration between the osx guys and the rest of the team, this fork probably won't make a lot of difference to the development of the core of XBMC or OSXBMC (for want of a better name), code swap is still available between the two teams and idea swapping doesn't seem to have happened much anyway.
I can only say I feel sad that a community I have grown to care about has had to go through this. It's like watching your two best mates having a fight and being stuck in the middle afterwards.
2008-05-24, 02:26
It must be difficult for those developers who got close and now find themselves in an uncomfortable situation socially. A bit like an amicable divorce.
That being said, perhaps from a user's point of view getting OSX information and discussions will now be easier. Half the replies here would end with: "oh, I didn't realize you were using the OSX version". There is a big cultural difference between OSX, Windows and Linux. To have things in sync across this divide is very difficult and probably ends up in compromises and discussions that don't serve anyone. There's a reason why people prefer certain platforms. I doubt the solution is to aim for the least common factor.
As long as there are enough developers to form a vibrant OSX group then that sounds ideal to me. I don't particularly care for situations where OSX is an afterthought of some Windows or Linux project. I guess the one worry is that not only does a media app on the Mac have to worry about other platforms but it's not as though Front Row will be standing still forever.
pmcd
That being said, perhaps from a user's point of view getting OSX information and discussions will now be easier. Half the replies here would end with: "oh, I didn't realize you were using the OSX version". There is a big cultural difference between OSX, Windows and Linux. To have things in sync across this divide is very difficult and probably ends up in compromises and discussions that don't serve anyone. There's a reason why people prefer certain platforms. I doubt the solution is to aim for the least common factor.
As long as there are enough developers to form a vibrant OSX group then that sounds ideal to me. I don't particularly care for situations where OSX is an afterthought of some Windows or Linux project. I guess the one worry is that not only does a media app on the Mac have to worry about other platforms but it's not as though Front Row will be standing still forever.
pmcd
2008-05-26, 12:02
Now that you've forked, have you considered a rebranding from XBMC?
Xbox doesn't really have anything to do with Mac...
I just found out about this project today, and I think it is amazing. As the Youtube video said, this is what FrontRow should have been all along!
Two suggestions:
Firstly, I would recommend leveraging iTunes and iPhoto integration for music/photo capabilities, like FrontRow does (only do a better job). While I wouldn't know (being a non programmer) I'd imagine it would save you a fair bit of work, from not having to 'reinvent the wheel' etc.
Secondly, while I understand that the roots of the project are in linux and hacking etc, I implore you to keep it simple. I would bet that most users are happy to sacrifice features/options etc, in favour of simplicity, stability and ease of use.
Great work though so far!
Xbox doesn't really have anything to do with Mac...
I just found out about this project today, and I think it is amazing. As the Youtube video said, this is what FrontRow should have been all along!
Two suggestions:
Firstly, I would recommend leveraging iTunes and iPhoto integration for music/photo capabilities, like FrontRow does (only do a better job). While I wouldn't know (being a non programmer) I'd imagine it would save you a fair bit of work, from not having to 'reinvent the wheel' etc.
Secondly, while I understand that the roots of the project are in linux and hacking etc, I implore you to keep it simple. I would bet that most users are happy to sacrifice features/options etc, in favour of simplicity, stability and ease of use.
Great work though so far!
2008-05-26, 16:33
My personal note on this:
About a year ago I started the linux port (on which the OSX heavily relies). When I started this project I was part of TeamXBMC in all senses: I did not start my own personal web site (without even linking to xbmc.org!!??), I did not re-brand the product, I made sure the code is still compatible with the XBOX code (as much as I could), I did not release binaries on my own, I consulted with other members on design considerations etc. Being a team member means working with the team and for the goal of the team.
When happened with the OSX port is far from being like that.
I think elan is a great developer but he was not a TEAM PLAYER. This makes all the difference in the world. I'm not talking about cullman since I never understood his role (XBMC already has two great project managers, why need more?? what is his added value?? who assigned him to be a project manager??).
I think that when new people join a project that has been going on successfully for a few years, they should have some respect to the team and how it works. They either accept the rules (and possibly try to change them later through discussion) or leave. I accept the fact that they wanted to fork, but playing dirty in blog posts is not the proper way leave.
I have a strong feeling that team OSXBMC have a hidden agenda in this whole play which goes far beyond of "I'm used to commit stuff only after I release". Only time will tell. Just everyone needs to remember that the XBMC code is GPL and I'm willing to defend this, no matter the cost.
-Yuval
About a year ago I started the linux port (on which the OSX heavily relies). When I started this project I was part of TeamXBMC in all senses: I did not start my own personal web site (without even linking to xbmc.org!!??), I did not re-brand the product, I made sure the code is still compatible with the XBOX code (as much as I could), I did not release binaries on my own, I consulted with other members on design considerations etc. Being a team member means working with the team and for the goal of the team.
When happened with the OSX port is far from being like that.
I think elan is a great developer but he was not a TEAM PLAYER. This makes all the difference in the world. I'm not talking about cullman since I never understood his role (XBMC already has two great project managers, why need more?? what is his added value?? who assigned him to be a project manager??).
I think that when new people join a project that has been going on successfully for a few years, they should have some respect to the team and how it works. They either accept the rules (and possibly try to change them later through discussion) or leave. I accept the fact that they wanted to fork, but playing dirty in blog posts is not the proper way leave.
I have a strong feeling that team OSXBMC have a hidden agenda in this whole play which goes far beyond of "I'm used to commit stuff only after I release". Only time will tell. Just everyone needs to remember that the XBMC code is GPL and I'm willing to defend this, no matter the cost.
-Yuval
2008-05-26, 17:22
My spidey senses are telling me there are some more "give us credit for actually making this...?" arguments along the line.
Massive potential and clueless(ly) loyal users is a good combo, well done for spotting it.
obviously this is a joke post
Massive potential and clueless(ly) loyal users is a good combo, well done for spotting it.
obviously this is a joke post
2008-05-26, 20:00
[MODERATOR EDIT]: Deleted insult of other member(s).
2008-05-26, 20:21
jahpraiseherb Wrote:Secondly, while I understand that the roots of the project are in linux and hacking etc, I implore you to keep it simple. I would bet that most users are happy to sacrifice features/options etc, in favour of simplicity, stability and ease of use.Please read the XBMC manifesto (The vision of Team-XBMC) and you will understand that we are on the same page:
http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=The_XBMC_manifesto
The history of the XBMC project can be found on wikipedia if you are interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XBMC#XBox_M...29_History
jahpraiseherb Wrote:Now that you've forked, have you considered a rebranding from XBMC?I really hope that they do for both out benefit, to something that does not have "XBMC" in the name. It will be really confusing for all users of XBMC is there will be two different versions of XBMC. I suggest they change it to something original that is unique (like MediaPortal did when they forked from XBMC), ...IMHO that it would be much simpler for all involved if OSXBMC renamed the software are the osxbmc.com domain to Barkey's Media Center or something.
2008-05-26, 20:52
Gamester17: And I think you and Team XBMC should recognize that you will never have a better OS X product than you do with Elan and his group on your team, kill the bureaucratic B.S. and do whatever it takes to get them back as part of Team XBMC.
When bureaucracy and red tape stifle creativity you end up with second rate products ala Micro$oft.
I feel that the pressure your team brought on Elan's group which forced them to leave is reminiscent of the pressure brought on Linux developers by the Windows community in the early days.
Of course, I only have the posts here and Elan's blog from which to form an opinion, but based on the responses I've seen by people such as Jezz-X and others on TeamXBMC, I don't think I'm far off the mark here.
Make up, make it right, and get back on the same team!
When bureaucracy and red tape stifle creativity you end up with second rate products ala Micro$oft.
I feel that the pressure your team brought on Elan's group which forced them to leave is reminiscent of the pressure brought on Linux developers by the Windows community in the early days.
Of course, I only have the posts here and Elan's blog from which to form an opinion, but based on the responses I've seen by people such as Jezz-X and others on TeamXBMC, I don't think I'm far off the mark here.
Make up, make it right, and get back on the same team!
