[Dumyat]

If you can give me the dd_progid from your XMLTV file I can show you the raw Schedules Direct data as an example.

Just sent you a PM.

[DeltaMikeCharlie]

Taking inspiration from posts made by @mikeSiLVO and @Dumyat (thanks), I have re-revised my revised Estuary PVR info screen to more closely resemble the video info screen.

Here is the video info screen as a reference.  (The light grey box shows the full extent of the space allocated for the poster.)



For the revised PVR screen, a new block has been added to the right to contain the metadata previously presented with the plot.  The middle block now only contains the plot, and maybe the cast added to the end due to formatting quirks with ListItem.Cast.  All 3 blocks have been sized and located to emulate the aesthetic of the video info screen.

A list of tags has been added to the bottom right.  Currently, this can contain the duration, recording file size and either the parental rating icon or text, but not both.  In future, perhaps this area could be expanded to include things like a channel icon, repeat flag, black-and-white indicator, HD or whatever depending upon what is available from the backend.

The following example has a short wide parental rating icon.



This example has a square parental rating icon.



This example has a parental rating text only, no icon.



This last example is from a completed recording.



These examples are still works-in-process.  The playback OSD and the channel/timer/recording list details have not been addressed yet because I think that the solution across these areas should be harmonised as much as possible.

Comments are invited regarding the suitability of this layout.

[ksooo]

One o important thing to consider is how it looks like if epg does not provide some of the „extended“ metadata, like cast, thumbnails, … which is for many of us the normal situation i guess. Whatever we do, it should not look ugly if some non essential information is missing.

[emveepee]

Thanks for the screen shots. It is clear to me that a text G in a white bordered button would be more consistent size and style in Estuary than an arbitrary G icon a user would have to somehow acquire and configure so I don't see any need in pvr.nextpvr (at least for me to PR or support).  Fortunately the parental rating text codes in general are small and well suited to a text button.

[DeltaMikeCharlie]

Thanks for the screen shots. It is clear to me that a text G in a white bordered button would be more consistent size and style in Estuary than an arbitrary G icon a user would have to somehow acquire and configure so I don't see any need in pvr.nextpvr (at least for me to PR or support).  Fortunately the parental rating text codes in general are small and well suited to a text button.

Thanks @emveepee.

My only comment is that the parental rating icons are not arbitrary, they have specific meaning within the country/region in which they are issued.

I would hope that a parent in Australia (where this example is from) will see that green block and immediately recognise it as something suitable for their child.  A yellow block would probably be OK, but a blue or a red block may not be OK.  Parents in other countries may also be aware of the shape or colour of the various rating icons applicable to them.

[DeltaMikeCharlie]

One o important thing to consider is how it looks like if epg does not provide some of the „extended“ metadata, like cast, thumbnails, … which is for many of us the normal situation i guess. Whatever we do, it should not look ugly if some non essential information is missing.

@ksooo - Here is a sample with minimal data.

[emveepee]

Don't get me wrong there is no doubt that some parents will like seeing the icons.  Since pvr.nextpvr wasn't even providing the available text to Kodi and no one asked for it , it was not on my radar and I will PR the text rating and see how this progresses.  I already find the "Rated" vs "Rating" naming confusing so improving that might make further skin changes helpful as would more at a glance viewing on the guide.  How parents deal with the 50% or more of the shows with no rating is another question.

As for arbitrary I meant that in relation to the moved thread since there is no actual source for these icons and skin designers won't actually know what icons users will be adding or how readable they will be on the 10' interface.   Here in North American they aren't colour coded.  I did note earlier that text with colour could be an option like genre colouring perhaps based on the DVB age as a more generic solution. I see this as better then icons and rating system agnostic.   Focusing on age versus coloring leads to a lot of potential for parental control in Kodi at the show not channel level.

Note rather then colour both the US and Canadian systems add descriptive content label to the icons, to further help parents, hard to get all those permutations.

[DeltaMikeCharlie]

I already find the "Rated" vs "Rating" naming confusing

Agreed, that particular naming similarity can be very confusing.

I have also seen reference to 'classification' in some jurisdictions for the parental version.  The DVB specification calls it the 'parental_rating_descriptor'.

In TVH, I went with "Parental Rating Label' as a way to avoid confusion.
 
In Kodi, that got converted to ListItem.ParentalRating (age, pre-existing field), ListItem.ParentalRatingCode/ListItem.ParentalRatingMPAA (text) and ListItem.ParentalRatingIcon (icon). All having the 'ParentalRating' prefix to indicate the intent.
 

As for arbitrary I meant that in relation to the moved thread since there is no actual source for these icons and skin designers won't actually know what icons users will be adding or how readable they will be on the 10' interface.

Apologies, my mistake.

I don't think that skin designers need to know what the icons look like, just like other artwork. As long as they allow for a consistent location, size and aspect ratio, the rest is done by the PVR backend.
 

Note rather then colour both the US and Canadian systems add descriptive content label to the icons, to further help parents, hard to get all those permutations.

Australia has both classification codes/coloured icons as well as advisory text. The advisory text is not carried in the DVB EIT but is often displayed onscreen prior to the broadcast commencing. New Zealand has a similar coloured system, but they can also add the advisory to the displayed code, 'M-LSVC'.


@ksooo, @emveepee - Do we make this an option in Estuary?

1) Icon (when available)
2) Code
3) None

I would default to 1) and let the user select 2) or 3) if it annoys them.

[emveepee]

I don't think that skin designers need to know what the icons look like, just like other artwork. As long as they allow for a consistent location, size and aspect ratio, the rest is done by the PVR backend.

I think Kodi core already has issues defining the rating text for movies without considering icons or TV shows,  https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/issues/20689 so aren't you just ignoring the problem and passing it on the backend?   It's nice that TVHeadend backend has icon capability but with no direction for TVHeadend users who might want to add icons I wonder how many users will go through the trouble.  That is why I hoped for a nice set of univeral icons in Kodi Textures.db which could be used in core.  That is the only way I see to to add the consistency for users and skinners that you discuss.  Y

You also forgot colour, if that is a factor skinners need to know how to show (as a minimum) red, yellow, green, orange, blue, black and white properly on their themes.

FWIW with Schedules Direct you can get the content descriptors with the guide data.

[DeltaMikeCharlie]

You also forgot colour, if that is a factor skinners need to know how to show (as a minimum) red, yellow, green, orange, blue, black and white properly on their themes.

Point taken, partially. I assume that you mean that the skinner will use the rating text provided, but add a coloured element generated by the skin, perhaps as a background colour texture or similar.
 

so aren't you just ignoring the problem and passing it on the backend?

For the purposes of this discussion, the ‘backend’ is the means by which the data gets into Kodi. It could be either a PVR Client or expanded to include a movie scraper, etc.

The basic problem is which icon to display. If every rating text was unique globally, then we would not have a problem. However, as soon as you have 3 ‘PG’ or ‘Ab 6’ or whatever, decisions need to be made about which icon to display.

This first option could just be to resolve any ambiguities by also considering the user’s local country code as well. If a Kiwi gets a ‘PG’ they assume that it is a New Zealand ‘PG’ not an Australian ‘PG’. This could be OK but it may not be 100% correct.

Maybe Kodi could build rating icons by country into their language addon system, then perhaps skinners could use these resources that would be curated by users knowledgable in their language/locale.

I had read the issue that you linked to previously. It mentions the need for a country code. From this, the country code can be added to the rating text and an icon file name can be derived. The skin then becomes responsible for accumulating and curating every potential rating icon globally.

What I have done with TVH, is to move the country+code logic to be closer to the source. The country code comes from the DVB EIT and can be inferred by the XMLTV ‘system’. TVH can then use the rating text for its own purposes (EPG, timers and recordings) and pass that data on to Kodi for display.

Perhaps in TVH, I could also pass the country code to Kodi as well. Maybe presenting as ListItem.ParentalRatingCountry. This would allow skinners to either use the rating icon that the backend has determined or ignore that and use its own based on ListItem.ParentalRatingCountry+ListItem.ParentalRatingCode.

Both methods are solving exactly the same underlying problem, ‘how do we get rating + country in order to display the correct icon’, just at different places in the data processing chain.

Finally, I see us as engaging in a well meaning discussion, not an argument. I hope that you agree.

[emveepee]

For the colour issue I feel there are 2 separate considerations.  For icons the background of a skin may make coloured icons impossible to read.   For text I think the age could be applied to the text or button background and give you the colours you need.

Country codes are a DVB ISO things.  XMLTV and Schedules Direct are rating system based so more generic.   I probably was suggesting that changes needed to be region agnostic because of country difference (my guide has 6 rating systems depending on the stations and show).  One thing all systems have in common is age guidelines, so again I think general age as text makes the most sense.  You already do age mapping in the backend for TVHeadend so you understand this.   For me the most important information from the page you showed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television...ing_system the age guidelines in the top chart.  I think most parents who see a a value in  ranges like can make their own judgment.  They aren't looking aren't looking for the exact information or country specific info, it is more a guideline to help them decide if their child should watch it or not.

I read your PR and my biggest fear is the text becomes a lookup key rather than something the is easy and quick to look at and interpret so I hope it doesn't get overloaded.

Finally, I don't consider this discussion an argument at all.  I would like to see something more useful than exists today if it is something that a typical parent doesn't have to do a lot of manual configuration to use and that the information isn't just an icon as eye candy After all unrated is still the biggest category here.

[DeltaMikeCharlie]

For the colour issue I feel there are 2 separate considerations.  For icons the background of a skin may make coloured icons impossible to read.   For text I think the age could be applied to the text or button background and give you the colours you need.

Good point. A skin developer needs to be sensitive to the range of colours that may be present.
 

Country codes are a DVB ISO things.  XMLTV and Schedules Direct are rating system based so more generic.

There still needs to be a ‘PG’ tie breaker. It could be country, it could be system. Whichever the EPG source provides, there may need to be some sort of mapping between the two to be able to break the tie. Either mapping country to system or system to country.
 

One thing all systems have in common is age guidelines, so again I think general age as text makes the most sense.

Age mapping may not be as precise as it first appears. A lot of jurisdictions use vague terms like ‘Younger Children’ without specifying an actual age. The ‘age’ is just a number that gets used by the receiver to select a rating to display. Provided that the ‘age’ value associated with each rating increases with its restrictiveness, that number is also useful for content blocking.

Here is an extract from the Australian standard regarding the parental_rating_descriptor (note the last sentence):

2.4 parental_rating_descriptor
This descriptor incorporates the country code (AUS) followed by an 8-bit number that corresponds to the parental guidance rating as per the classification code in the Australian Parental Guide Code. Coding of the rating value is specific to Australian classifications according to Table 4.10 of AS4599 [1]. Note: this is different to the DVB use of this 8-bit number.

Also, according to DVB, a transmitted ‘age’ value > 16 (real age 19) is actually ‘broadcaster-defined’, so even there, it is not 100% useful.

I see 2 unresolved issues regarding icons:
What is the tie-breaker used for icon display? Country or System?
At what stage of the data processing chain does this tie-breaking occur?

In summary, my opinion is:
The backend, including movie scrapers, etc, is closer to the source data and should pre-process the rating code and icon for the Kodi skin to display.
The backend should manage the mapping between country/region/system and determine the rating code/icon to provide to Kodi.
Optional rating display settings (Icon then Text/Text Only/None) could be added to Estuary to cater for user preference.

[emveepee]

I don't think the age guidelines has to be precise as you do. I feel parent can figure out the rating in general terms and equate them to their own children's ability to understand what they are watching.  Besides the same show might be PG here and rated G 2 km away in Quebec.

Also on the precision question I confirmed with Schedules Direct that they can't provide the actual TV ratings for movies, it is not available from the source.  I was watching Die Hard 2 and it was showing TV-PG LV on the edited version on screen but they only had the R and 18 ratings from the theatrical standard releases available in the metadata.  Older children might be prevented from hearing a bleeped out "yippie ki-yay" if parents take the text or the icon as gospel.

Martin

[ksooo]

> Whichever the EPG source provides

We try to find a solution that is suitable not only for PVR (EPG, recordings), but for all videos (movies provided via library or addons, tv shows, …), right?

[DeltaMikeCharlie]

We try to find a solution that is suitable not only for PVR (EPG, recordings), but for all videos (movies provided via library or addons, tv shows, …), right?

That could be considered to be 'scope creep', but yes, it would be nice if there could be a single unifying solution.