The unfortunate case of one particular Meedios skin
#16
heh Its funny/sad that crn came to this forum and specifically said he didn't want anyone to copy his Vintage theme (and we all respected that and didn't) but clearly just takes the layout from AEON Stark screenshots for his new one without giving any credit or even asking.
#17
Woot about time we had some drama with you lot instead of the MP guys :p

Just out of interest what exactly is the problem? Not asking for permission or the idea that he has released it before yourself?

Just to clear up the second one, this MeediOS Stark theme is NOT RELEASED YET publicly. Those screenshots are development previews posted in the chrome thread.

CRN has a history of copying other themes, we had the same trouble with vintage and chrome but both were fixed by CRN creating is own graphics for everything. The drama was soon over after a quick forum thread Smile

Open source should be about building on other peoples work in my opinion, this makes it better for all, regardless of the frontend you use. We've done the same with the online databases, code and GUI tweaks. As far as I know all meedios stuff is available to the xbmc community to modify and use yourselves.

I see your point about someone saying your copying crn's work, but that's just them being not knowing very much Smile
#18
Jezz_X Wrote:heh Its funny/sad that crn came to this forum and specifically said he didn't want anyone to copy his Vintage theme (and we all respected that and didn't) but clearly just takes the layout from AEON Stark screenshots for his new one without giving any credit or even asking.

Got a link for that? sounds surprising as most themes are based on other ones(even vintage).
#19
Well, I can see from the responses in the MeediOS thread that the users there - or at least those that have posted so far - have no interest in respecting anyone's feelings on this matter so long as they get what they want. Shame on them, I say. Their audacity in saying, "Ooh, how very un-open source" just paints them in an even worse light.

The upshot is that it paints other communities such as this one in an extremely good light. The number of PMs I received from x2biris about his Horizonz mod before he went ahead speak for themselves. I had a similar number from the authors of Media Portal's Aeon ports. And even if I hadn't, at least they made it obvious that their work was a port, not a knock-off.

We should probably hold fire somewhat as crn hasn't had much time to respond himself. He also, in fairness, removed the Aeon Stark homepage - or at least its screenshot - from his project page extremely quickly. So props to him for that. More than anything, I hope that his Chrome stuff reacquires its own identity. All the stuff it does that isn't Aeon-based is very nice indeed, and to my knowledge was entirely original. Why not keep it that way?

To all those who'd say that this is un-open source, that it somehow goes against the principles upon which this software is based: do you really believe that? What if every movie that came out was like those hilarious STV knock-offs that had the exact same title, cover art and concept? What if everything on DeviantArt was just the same image but at different resolutions? What if Jonathan Glazer was putting the finishing touches to that famous Guinness advert, then woke one morning to find his colleague had walked off with the footage and released his own version? Do you really think that when Valve went apeshit about Half-Life 2 being leaked, they were simply safeguarding their future finances? Of course not. They worked long and hard on something they could call their own, that would stand alone, and that they could release with a deserved degree of applause and anticipation. If you can't understand how that applies to every community, open source or not, then that's too bad.
#20
@zag2me: You can't be that blind and NOT SEE where the problem lies here ? I would like to see you put 2 years into a project, give the community some screenshots and then 2 months later before you are even finished see a 100% replica on another forum for a different platform. If you tell me that wouldn't upset you and maybe even demotivate you to a point where you don't even want to finish it up, seeing that your own unique work now isn't unique anymore then you are either a very open-minded guy who doesn't take pride in his work and enjoys the (deserved) praise when it's done or a blatant liar.

@djh: Totally understand your feelings, that is just lame.
#21
Speaking for myself here, I feel the biggest problem isn't the actual copying of the skin but the way it went about. I feel it's about showing respect to the original author by asking up front and by providing credit to the author.
Just out of general interest in all things htpc/mediacenter I visit the meedios forum occassionally. I had seen the aeon "port" before and admittedly automatically assumed it had djh's consent but found it strange that nowhere to be found was any mention of the original project.
I don't buy the "it's open source so everything is automatically ok to copy" sentiment. Open Source doesn't (or shouldn't) eliminate common courtesy imo.
I don't really understand the need to clone Aeon anyway as I feel that crni is quite capable of producing some fine original work. As a matter of fact I was contemplating porting Vintage to XBMC long ago, but then I found out that crni preferred to have no ports to other platforms. I could have gone on and use "the open source argument", but I felt I needed to respect his wishes and ditch the plan.
#22
crn responded to djh in the thread and I have to say he was pretty respectful of the whole matter. I do agree that the whole situation was messed up but I have to respect him for at least acting on Duncan's requests.
#23
paul Wrote:So what are you gonna do about it DJH or is there nothing you can do

Well, there's plenty I could do. I could make a real bloody nuisance of myself, for a start. I could also abort Aeon entirely and let the fury of its fans run amok. But that wouldn't do anyone any good.

I'm asked why I didn't take this up as a PM; it's because the matter was public already. If people have been deceived to the point where they're writing me nasty emails, then this is something for people to address. I should probably stop going on about a single email, though, as it's not important and it's not the issue at hand. The last few posters here have expressed that issue perfectly.

It might interest you know that I've had more than one corporate client - one of them major - interested in buying something "Aeon-esque" for their own use. I've turned them down for various reasons, a not insignificant one being the XBMC community and its freedom as a non-profit endeavour. I've been told that Aeon does something definitive by people I respect a great deal - Hollywood people, believe it or not - so that uniqueness is particularly precious. It's also what drives me to continue working on it. It does worry me, though, that one of these potential clients will just copy it anyway, so the issue of intellectual property is one I'm thoroughly at home with.

I've also been asked why I'm so uppity about this when we'll happily rip off an interface by Microsoft or Sony without a second thought. Hell, even I toyed with the possibilities of Microsoft's NXE, though I would have asked them first. But there is a fundamental difference. Corporations have two assurances when doing their big-league designs: they're being paid, for one, and they know that whatever small-time clones should appear, their work is guaranteed an audience of thousands, even millions. There will never be doubt over who should get the credit, and whatever significance they achieve will be rightly recognised.

All we have as volunteer skinners is the faint hope of a blog post, a user base, and maybe a nod of appreciation when names like Aeon, Media Stream and Project Mayhem are spoken around the world. Unauthorised, uncredited, pre-emptive clones don't help. People who defend them don't help. Until you've sacrificed all your free time to that slim ideal, you're in little position to judge. So you'll forgive me for getting on my soapbox.

It's no use saying, "Aww, but where's the problem if no textures are being reused?" That nonsense has come from Blackbolt's experience with Microsoft, a case of simple potential copyright infringement over specific Microsoft assets. I'd imagine Redmond was quietly warmed by the tribute it was getting, comfortable in the knowledge that its product was out in the wild and built into ten million games consoles. We don't have that luxury, though we spend just as much time on the work. If this debacle makes the casual forum browser and downloader appreciate that a little, it's been worth it.
#24
I will simply repost what CRN wrote on the meedios forums, he seems to be much more respectful than me Smile

djh_ Wrote:If crn appreciates both then I hope he'll honour my wish to have the cloned material removed from his skin and its own identity re-established.

crn Wrote:I thought I already did that and that matter has been resolved :?
I respect your work, I asked you specifically what parts you want me to remove from Chrome and I have complied with every request you made. I've removed download link and will upload version with removed STARK related stuff later (Transparent menu and OSD info panels are just one small part of the Chrome so it's not that hard to make the changes)
If you want me to do anything else all you have to do is ask so I really don't see why there is still talk about this or why do you have to post sticky in XBMC forum.
(well I guess you are pissed off so you did what you needed/had to do to get it out of your system)

Those other screens you posted are not released or even finished yet. Those are just screenshots and I had no intention of releasing them before checking with you as they obviously have STARK written all over them (in fact that was the working title). Well I guess that's out of the question now but I have no problem with that...
I do this kind a stuff for fun and having something like this manageable in app that is basically been in NO development for years now (and that only chosen few has been able to setup :lol: ) is more a challenge then anything...

Other then distinctive home page and time and rss panels I don't consider other parts of the skin cloned but just to be on the safe side I'd like to know do you consider this to be clones of your skin and do you have problem with this :
  • Image Image Image

To all of others that are trying to defend me in some way - please don't. DJH_ has every right to claim what's his and if it wasn't for his work none of this would be possible in meedio today as seeing his original AEON is what's made me try to push things like fanart and backdrops in meedio although very few believed that's possible in such 'old' app... I just regret all the drama as all of this could / would easily be resolved with single PM...

Also I'd like to clear one more thing. As for not allowing Vintage to be ported to the XBMC it's true. At the time it was the only thing that was drawing users back to the meedio so I'd feared that allowing it to be ported would damaged meedio community. In my defense later I was approached with same requests for Chrome and I granted permission to whoever asked to use whatever part of the theme in any way they wanted...
#25
And let that be that. I've extended my thanks to crn for his honesty and promptness in resolving the matter, especially at Christmas. Thanks also to you guys for your immediate support - not for a moment did I worry that I was on my own, though I could easily have.

That's it, then. Ring destroyed. Everyone back the Shire.

(Oh, and in a little Christmas treat, Emilio's back from the wilderness with his personal matters resolved. So you know that Aeon look we've been arguing over today? Now it gets better again.)

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The unfortunate case of one particular Meedios skin0