[shelf]

unfortunately i don't have anything productive to add to this thread, but i've been monitoring it for a few months.

in that time, the 'ordered chapters' cancer has been spreading. it is almost impossible to find a good 1080p BD rip for a 2010 anime (series not movie) that doesn't have ordered chapters. THORA are prime culprits, for those looking for evidence. take a peek at bakabt '1080p' tag to see how many of them are infected.

this annoying feature has hit critical mass. i'm not sure why, since people downloading HD obviously have no shortage of disk space, but it is how it is.

i've been tinkering around in bash trying to create 'unfuck.sh' or similar to just brute-force reverse the process, but that kind of hack won't be acceptable to most.

+1 from me :3

[BLKMGK]

unfortunately i don't have anything productive to add to this thread, but i've been monitoring it for a few months.

in that time, the 'ordered chapters' cancer has been spreading. it is almost impossible to find a good 1080p BD rip for a 2010 anime (series not movie) that doesn't have ordered chapters. THORA are prime culprits, for those looking for evidence. take a peek at bakabt '1080p' tag to see how many of them are infected.

this annoying feature has hit critical mass. i'm not sure why, since people downloading HD obviously have no shortage of disk space, but it is how it is.

i've been tinkering around in bash trying to create 'unfuck.sh' or similar to just brute-force reverse the process, but that kind of hack won't be acceptable to most.

+1 from me :3

Wow, you really don't understand what this is do you? For starters you don't need to worry about the ordered chapters if all you want is the primary movie. It will play through just fine and AFTER the credits you'll get the additional scenes.

Why would we want this? Gee I have SO much disk space right? For starters I don't download movies. I rip them myself and encode them myself. A movie can take several HOURS to process. So if a movie, say SALT, has THREE versions I process all three. Each copy is a bit over 13GIGS. If I did this with an ordered chapter setup I would use maybe a total of 14gigs. So while I may have a decent amount of disk space I would really prefer to NOT throw it away given a choice. Believe it or not everyone doesn't have the same needs as you so instead of treating this as an issue how about waking up and realizing that it's a feature. Honestly I didn't even realize that Anime was using this - I think it's great and far from the "cancer" you seem to think it is.

BTW - I see we got 4 different FFMPEG patches rolled into SVN today. I know these may be official but often times we seem to get ALL of FFMPEG so I'm not sure. Pretty please could a dev consider looking into one of the unoffical patches and some sort of interface for it?

P.S. Don't want the ordered chapters on your Anime movies? Pop the movie into an editor, scroll to the end of the movie, cut them off. All fixed. Not much different than editing out commercials from a TV show - BTDT.

[shelf]

Wow, you really don't understand what this is do you? For starters you don't need to worry about the ordered chapters if all you want is the primary movie. It will play through just fine and AFTER the credits you'll get the additional scenes.

Why would we want this? Gee I have SO much disk space right? For starters I don't download movies. I rip them myself and encode them myself. A movie can take several HOURS to process. So if a movie, say SALT, has THREE versions I process all three. Each copy is a bit over 13GIGS. If I did this with an ordered chapter setup I would use maybe a total of 14gigs. So while I may have a decent amount of disk space I would really prefer to NOT throw it away given a choice. Believe it or not everyone doesn't have the same needs as you so instead of treating this as an issue how about waking up and realizing that it's a feature. Honestly I didn't even realize that Anime was using this - I think it's great and far from the "cancer" you seem to think it is.

BTW - I see we got 4 different FFMPEG patches rolled into SVN today. I know these may be official but often times we seem to get ALL of FFMPEG so I'm not sure. Pretty please could a dev consider looking into one of the unoffical patches and some sort of interface for it?

P.S. Don't want the ordered chapters on your Anime movies? Pop the movie into an editor, scroll to the end of the movie, cut them off. All fixed. Not much different than editing out commercials from a TV show - BTDT.

That was fucking rude. You have no right to call me names on the internet and JUST SO YOU KNOW im infact not a virgin and also I could easily beat you up in real life because I am in shape and also strong. so CHECK YOUR FACTS before POSTING RUDE REPLIES.

rudeness aside, you don't seem to understand how its being used, so refrain from comment.

ordered chapters are most widely used (as in, EVERY SINGLE top result in google for 'ordered chapters mkv') for TV series, DVD or BD batch releases, 95% anime since the release groups tend to operate with stupid hivemind. if you look carefully, 90% of this thread is also related to this, and the way you seem to use segment linking is far less common and frankly, just as stupid, duplicating playlist functionality.

typical usage will have the opening and ending sequences cut out (these are often plot devices) and segment linking used, which is completely ignored by every media player not using haali. although a few hackish mplayer patches exist, which tend to revert to first audio/sub stream when moving between clips. so you'll have english one moment japanese the next.

its a cancer because its a security hazard and mplayer / ffmpeg devs refuse to mainline it for this reason. its a hackish, stupid feature, poorly supported and difficult to reverse, at least automatically. when you're operating with 50 tv series of 26 episodes apiece, fixing them manually isn't very sensible.

given its increasing prevalence it is far easier to just support it rather than pressure these stupid groups into encoding things properly.

So if a movie, say SALT, has THREE versions I process all three. Each copy is a bit over 13GIGS. If I did this with an ordered chapter setup I would use maybe a total of 14gigs.

this easily achieved with a playlist. (akin to how people use CUE sheets with music disc images). if someone without OC support (i.e. most people over 15 years of age, old enough to be using GNU/Linux or dumb enough to have OS X) gets your release they will entirely miss out on the linked content.

regardless of whether the feature is a good idea or not, its almost completely unsupported, so using it for releases is decidedly obnoxious.

to make a copy that plays in the intended manner, they'd need to extract each chapter to a separate file and make playlists - what you should have done from the start. that, or build three copies.

[BLKMGK]

Rude? Names? Please cite where I called you anything. I could care less if you think you're big and tough and have managed to have sex with anyone lol. You're pretty funny there tough guy. With all of TWO posts on this board you call ME rude? Who's the one swearing like a child? You really should get out of your basement more and develop some social skills.

So you've seen it done differently elsewhere? Think there's a better way to do this that meets the need without files you don't like? Great! A shame you couldn't have explained it better before you began acting rude\swearing and thumping your chest like a child. Sheesh! If people are doing this in increasing numbers then perhaps, just maybe, there's a need and your alternate has some failing that you've failed to notice?

I build these ordered chapters using a tool specifically designed to build them mentioned earlier in the thread. It's designed for BD movies specifically. I even gave you an example where it could be used and why. I truly don't care if you don't agree with how this is done, this isn't a "scene release" for others I am attempting to duplicate the functionality of a seamless branching BD. Gee, it works too! All in one container using a function of the Matroska spec. so it's portable if need be. That's one file, not a bunch of chapters with a playlist - THAT would be a PITA.

[BLKMGK]

Take a look at the ffmpeg mailing list when said patches are submitted.

jmarshall - the only talk of this I can find is from 2008 where folks were asking for support. I'm not seeing a response from the developers and a Google search of the archive site also doesn't provide additional hits. Can you be more specific? Has Matroska done this poorly or something? Media Player Classic handles them but I'm not interested in using that and wish to stick with XBMC. Even if I could shove the patch into the ffmpeg XBMC uses there's no interface so we're all stuck. It apparently causes the Anime guys fits but as multithreaded BD become ever more available I expect that others will feel the same pain I do. I can just keep burning disk space but it's pretty silly I think Can you please elaborate or give some references?

[alexrose1uk]

Wow, shelf, you really do come across poorly. BLKMGK was a bit sarcastic, but...lets be fair thats nothing new on the internet, and your responses were FAR ruder. If thats that attitude you carry everywhere

Personally I'd agree with BLK and say that whilst space is becoming cheaper, wasting space is still stupid. Ordered Chapters has a long way to go until mainstream support is achieved, but as a concept idea, its a good one.

When you're looking at 50 series as per your example, with 26eps each, at say, 1080p BD quality with HD audio...about 1GB per episode. By dropping on average 4 mins per episode, you're actually dropping about 150-180MB per episode (given that the OP/Intro of anime as you're citing as an example tend to feature more movement/higher quality animation than segments of shows, because studios know to some extent it represents the series).

(25 eps worth of op/ed removal*50series=)*150MB...you've saved about 185GB, or enough space to store along the lines of another 150-200 episodes. In the long term, I'd definately call that a waste! Just because space is cheap, doesn't mean it should be squandered, and I'd personally state that when you could have saved that 195GB, you'd be a little silly not to do so. Not everyone has endless money (or even space in thier machines) to keep adding hard drives, and buying continuous external enclosures adds to cost and, generally (considering USB2.0 is most acceptable), is slower.

In the long term, I definately agree this is a good idea, perhaps implementation and support could do with improving, but why should that stop people using it? It's only when things get used that they begin to take off and implementation increases.

[shelf]

lets take your dumb perspective. from this view, OC is great.

from this view, the only thing holding OC back from world domination is across the board support.

that is to say, XBMC, ffmpeg and mplayer are destroying your dream.

[BLKMGK]

lets take your dumb perspective. from this view, OC is great.

from this view, the only thing holding OC back from world domination is across the board support.

that is to say, XBMC, ffmpeg and mplayer are destroying your dream.

Name calling?

Ordered Chapters are part of the Matroska specification. So are menus and some other interesting features. Sadly these features just don't have support in products that are used or tools to easily produce them - life would be easier if that existed.

Many people, myself included, wish to reproduce the experience we get playing BluRay formatted media. That desire includes the ability to seamlessly branch content in order to conserve space. BluRay does this NOW and is successful (dominating perhaps?) so perhaps it's not so dumb?

Perhaps if there were a tool to create Playlists that recreated this experience without a great deal of manual effort that might be a suitable substitute but I've yet to see one and frankly don't wish to rip (and worse encode) videos in chapter sized chunks. Doing this as a single file is easier all around for myself and others. It's portable, the spec supports it, and the work process for creation is easier. Why you don't see the advantage to this is a mystery to me. <shrug>

ffmpeg, for which patches have already been submitted, and XBMC need to support this. mplayer can do as they please and support it or not, that makes no difference to me.

I'd love to know what the controversy is with regards to supporting this in ffmpeg but I've yet to find the conversation in their archives. Conceptually support appears straightforward so I'm puzzled, follow a chapter list specified by the user that exists in the container. The user is responsible for specifying which path to take and the encoder is responsible for making sure proper frames exist to do the synch at the jump. Audio appears to be the toughest part of this from what I've experienced playing back one of these.

[ashlar]

lets take your dumb perspective. from this view, OC is great.

from this view, the only thing holding OC back from world domination is across the board support.

that is to say, XBMC, ffmpeg and mplayer are destroying your dream.

I have to say your insignificant contribution to this discussion has already received too much attention. Welcome to my ignore list.

[htpcero]

ffmpeg, for which patches have already been submitted, and XBMC need to support this. mplayer can do as they please and support it or not, that makes no difference to me.

FWIW - VLC (as of Ubuntu 10.10's stock VLC) also supports playback of full seasons of series in single matroska container. Took me a while to figure out - I was too used to XBMC and had lost my VLC skills

VLC will play by default only the first "series' episode" (and will show "episode's chapters", the same ones that XBMC can currently see and jump to) and then stop. If you want to play a different episode, go to the Video menu, Navigation submenu, where you will see the episode listing; VLC calls each episode a "segment", segment zero is episode 1 etc.

AFAIK VLC is based on ffmpeg. If they could do it, my hopes are high that XBMC will do this sometime soon as well.

XBMC devs - hope you will see this thread

[BLKMGK]

I generally use VLC on Windows but I'll try to check it out. I just did Toy Story from a BD source as a multi-chapter using Xin1. Biggest issue I had was Xin1 pulls the original DTSMA audio and I wanted AC3 and maybe DTS so I had to tweak but I think it worked :-)

[robpdotcom]

Biggest issue I had was Xin1 pulls the original DTSMA audio and I wanted AC3 and maybe DTS so I had to tweak but I think it worked :-)

xin1 now has a track selection feature, with the option to convert to different formats. It's VERY simple to use now.

[BLKMGK]

xin1 now has a track selection feature, with the option to convert to different formats. It's VERY simple to use now.

Ah VERY nice! thanks for alerting me to that! I haven't been running into many multi-chapter BD lately and the devs don't seem interested in working on support right now. But this makes creating them easier for sure, most awesome!

for those curious -> http://code.google.com/p/xin1generator/d...z&can=2&q=

[SoCol]

it is almost impossible to find a good 1080p BD rip for a 2010 anime (series not movie) that doesn't have ordered chapters. THORA are prime culprits, for those looking for evidence. take a peek at bakabt '1080p' tag to see how many of them are infected.

You're 100% correct. Coalgirls are even worse than THORA in this regard, for they separate op/ed animations from the main video body even if those are different for each episode! It's simply unbelievable, but true. Go figure.

i've been tinkering around in bash trying to create 'unfuck.sh' or similar to just brute-force reverse the process, but that kind of hack won't be acceptable to most.

True again, such solutions (although they did exist) used to break with every new release of mkvtoolkit, so they were a royal pain in the neck to use. It's about time we had OrderedChapters support, really. Lack of it breaks XBMC for a lot of people now.

[BLKMGK]

Apparently the issue lies with ffmpeg supporting ordered chapters. Supposedly there's contention that this is a security issue or some other problem. However I've been unable to find any such discussion in their mailing list archives as of a month or so ago. VLC is supporting it and so are others so hopefully things will move along soon...