The best remote: no remote?
#1
Question 
Seeing that one of the worst problems ppl has is choosing and configuring a remote, that mostly XBMC is used connected to a modern TV with HDMI and that most TV remotes has DVD controls, has someone explored the posibility of using CEC?

If it could be used, it will be the PERFECT solution to most people!!!

After searching a little more, it seems that additional hardware is required... Undecided

http://rainshadowtech.com/default_files/HDMICECUSB.htm

http://www.chrontel.com/products/7322.htm

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1002043

http://forums.nvidia.com/lofiversion/ind...61191.html
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#2
im sorry but why do you want to send commands from the TV to your PC (that is if i understood CEC correctly, or will it send the command from the PC to the TV over HDMI??)

In both cases, you are talking about the remotes that come with the new TV's and have multiple controls included in them (DVD/VCR/etc..), so may I suggest a very simple and almost for free (less than 10USD cost) which will allow you to use LIRC to learn your remotes commands (lets say for DVD) and use those to control your XBMC box with.

http://lnx.manoweb.com/lirc/?partType=se...troduction this here is how to build a very simple IR receiver for your PC (XBMC box) and which you could use to make LIRC learn any remote's codes (and i mean any IR remote you might have in the house) .. i actually tried it with 3 different remotes, and all of them work flawlessly .... just a thought
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#3
I'm a little surprised as well. I have no problem with remotes for XBMC.
I purchased ( $24.99 Can) a very simple PC remote called ..( apropriately) PC Remote and it serves all functions required.. You can program what button responds to the equivelant Keyboard button and thats all you really need..

To handle the problem with too many remotes.. many people want a universal remote that is programmable.. The Harmony is ideal but you need to sell your kids to buy one and it can be complicated somewhat.. for some..

The solution to that is the ICON Remote from X10.com who sell this bad boy for around 50 bucks. It has all the functionality of the Harmony including the screen and it also supports home control for lighting which the harmony doesn't..

What I do when I build a HTPC is I purchase the PC Remote with the USB receiver which is IR and I disassemble the USB receiver and mount the IR led to the HTPC case behind the display bezzel just below the display so its aiming forward and invisable from the outside of the case. I adapt a USB socket or uncased mini powered 12 volt USB hub to the inside of the HTPC case and cut off the USB plug and attach the wires to pin sockets to plug in the motherboard. If the connector is needed for the front panel I solder a USB plug to the wires or the cable end I cut off and plug it into the internally powered HUB. I usually try and make sure the motherboard has 4 USB sockets on the rear, and 2 or 4 more inside. Power the HUB from the 12 volt PC supply.

I then get the X10 remote and program the PC Remote into it.. ( of course they get both.) This is a very simple retro and total cost is under $100 Canadian.
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#4
Before this idea gets written off, I know that a LOT of people have remote issues, and that XBMC has a vast number of options for remotes.

I think that XBMC is suffering a bit because of the Linux lifestyle that is choice.

I have huge respect for Linux, but would like to point out a few items that may not be so obvious to developers and powerusers.


Before thinking about the remote situation, look at Apple for a second. In particular the iPod and the iPhone. These products are the best examples of consumer products around, because they appeal to the average joe. They are easy to use. These products were designed with usability in mind. These products also intentionally lack some features, to ensure that they are easy to use. These products pass the idiot test, to the point where Apple doesnt even ship a manual with them.

Almost all my friends have an iPod, a lot of my friends have iPhones. None of them own a Mac.



I have read countless threads on the forum with
"What Hardware should I Buy?"
"What Remote can I use?"
"What OS is the best?"

Users are suffering from to much choice.

I think XBMC's sucess is measured by its adoption, Boxee's sucess will be measured by the money it makes. A lot of users won't get to experiece XBMC because they cant buy one off the shelf, and when they try to find out what they need to make a media centre they are drowned in choice.

Now to my point:

HDMI-CEC is a fantastic idea, because it takes the guesswork away. By definition it is designed to "Dumb Down" the entertainment system and make things easier to use.

While HDMI-CEC offers nothing to Windows/Linux/OSX users, it would be right at home within those of us who have use XBMC as an appliance (running Apple TV or XBMCLive)

I think that if an XBMC Appliance was sold in stores, and people knew that it would utilise their Panasonic/Sony/LG remote and behave just like an integrated component, then devices and happy shoppers would walk out the door.

Currently none of my friends run XBMC, they see it at my house and love it. When I tell them that they cant buy one they have already lost interest.

I dream of the day that my XBMC appliacnce will work out of the box with my Panasonic 46" Plasma.
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#5
Quote:Currently none of my friends run XBMC, they see it at my house and love it. When I tell them that they cant buy one they have already lost interest.

sad but true.
http://www.xbmcnerds.com - german xbmc community
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#6
kortina Wrote:I dream of the day that my XBMC appliacnce will work out of the box with my Panasonic 46" Plasma.

If this was the case what would I do with all my free time?
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#7
kortina Wrote:Currently none of my friends run XBMC, they see it at my house and love it. When I tell them that they cant buy one they have already lost interest.

When my friends ask me that I tell them what hardware to buy and offer them an image of my machine to save all the 'fun' I've had setting mine up. Smile

PS: Despite my comment, I see your point. It's not for everybody, but once it's up and running it's hard to argue with the wow factor.
------------------------------------------
Dharma Quick Setup Guide:
XBMC tips on the TechNazgul Blog
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#8
kortina Wrote:Before this idea gets written off, I know that a LOT of people have remote issues, and that XBMC has a vast number of options for remotes.

I think that XBMC is suffering a bit because of the Linux lifestyle that is choice.

I have huge respect for Linux, but would like to point out a few items that may not be so obvious to developers and powerusers.


Before thinking about the remote situation, look at Apple for a second. In particular the iPod and the iPhone. These products are the best examples of consumer products around, because they appeal to the average joe. They are easy to use. These products were designed with usability in mind. These products also intentionally lack some features, to ensure that they are easy to use. These products pass the idiot test, to the point where Apple doesnt even ship a manual with them.

Almost all my friends have an iPod, a lot of my friends have iPhones. None of them own a Mac.



I have read countless threads on the forum with
"What Hardware should I Buy?"
"What Remote can I use?"
"What OS is the best?"

Users are suffering from to much choice.

I think XBMC's sucess is measured by its adoption, Boxee's sucess will be measured by the money it makes. A lot of users won't get to experiece XBMC because they cant buy one off the shelf, and when they try to find out what they need to make a media centre they are drowned in choice.

Now to my point:

HDMI-CEC is a fantastic idea, because it takes the guesswork away. By definition it is designed to "Dumb Down" the entertainment system and make things easier to use.

While HDMI-CEC offers nothing to Windows/Linux/OSX users, it would be right at home within those of us who have use XBMC as an appliance (running Apple TV or XBMCLive)

I think that if an XBMC Appliance was sold in stores, and people knew that it would utilise their Panasonic/Sony/LG remote and behave just like an integrated component, then devices and happy shoppers would walk out the door.

Currently none of my friends run XBMC, they see it at my house and love it. When I tell them that they cant buy one they have already lost interest.

I dream of the day that my XBMC appliacnce will work out of the box with my Panasonic 46" Plasma.

I'm sorry but I see this very good post of yours as apples and oranges.
People buy software they have to learn like Photoshop and there is a massive learning curve. I admit its not easy but what a fantastic product to dismiss because you have to do a bit or work... but perhaps your friends are simply not technicaly minded and that is actually the low end of the scale these days. You can simply save the headache and go and buy a built PC. Most people like your friends have money.. Simply buy what you can afford above low end within reason.. Most PCs have more than enough power to use this program out of the box and what you need to add is not expensive nor dificult to understand really. A simple writing down of what you want and presenting that to a tech would easily fix all that..

This stuff is not geared to the "Off the Shelf complete." market and therefore really doesn't apply. Ipods are simple for a completely different reason and again its not because they are geared to the non technical... Its actually a technical and business aspect. They are geared to ITUNES for people with money to control piracy and also to protect the hardware from damage..

Most people don't know that they can kill there media toy by improper removal from windows based machines. Stores won't tell you that but ask people with MP3 players how many of these media devices they own and many will say a handfull and mostly due to the failures of them and the real aspect of their lack of knowledge and the devices failure that is a known problem and caused by non disclosed mis handling. These devices must be released from windows like all thumbdrives and can easily fail if not done properly.

How many of you simply unplug your MP3 and MP4 player or thumb drive( USB Drive) without releaseing it from windows?..

Many have no idea and I have heard so many people tell me " I haven't had a problem " and there is a reason behind that but once explained( or read there manual) they see the point and others quickly say yes thats exactly what happened.

Itunes controls the music and effectively connects and releases the device to prevent damage and of course locks the media if your not carefull to prevent sharing.

XBMC is a kit package designed for those people with the desire to learn and relish in a great product derived from a bit of reading, research and some tech work and has no place for the buy it fully functional at Best Buy clan.

Please don't get me wrong and no offence to your friends but come on.. Do they not own a computer at all and whats the difference between learning something in software and learning something in hardware. Either way its an experience and they can always buy a built PC and do the software..

Just Sayin...( with all due respect)
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#9
I find the research, and building an enjoyable part of the process. But sadly for most of my friends, and I dare say the general public, the enjoyment for them is watching content.

XBMC is by far the best way to have the content delivered from a slick user interface, and intuative remote control.

People enjoy iPod and iPhone for their slick UI and ease of use. Some tech people enjoy jailbreaking their phones, but it is just not for everyone.

Getting back to the topic of remotes, HDMI-CEC is an obvious choice, adding some smarts to XBMC to do some simple tasks like switch to the correct input, and turn the amp on and to the correct input would put the usability beyond any other product that exists. The technology is there, but no main stream vendor has made it work correctly because they are all attempting to capture the market. (EG: buy the sony TV, and the Sony DVD, and the Sony amp etc).

XBMC Developers are not tainted by a commercial interest. Which is why this has a chance to suceed.

Scenario:
User has a Panasonic TV, a Yamaha Amp, and an AsRock ION.

Setp1) Plug ION into HDMI1
Step2) Download XBMCLive to your PC/Mac/Linux
Step3) Run "Create USB Stick" that will turn the download into something useful.
Step4) Put USB stick into the AsRock and Install
Step5) Using the remote, go to the settings in XBMC.
Step6) Tell XBMC that you have a Panasonic TV
Step7) XBMC will ask you which model?, and which HDMI port you have used?
Step8) Watch the XBMC magic as default Macros/Events trigger.

Eg:

After 1 hour of screen saver, XBMC turns off your TV and Amp, then goes to sleep.

When XBMC wakes up, it will Turn on your TV and Switch your amp to the correct inputs.

With an experience like this, people will think about building their own.

I would like to hear from the devs to see what their thoughts are on sucess, cause maybe I am wrong.

My assumption is that the Devs get great enjoyment from having their software adopted by many and for their creativity to become a part of people's every day lives.
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#10
I just couldn't disagree more. Buy any cheap remote that says "Windows MCE Remote" and it just works. If they want to buy it from someone...sell it to them yourself bundled with a remote ($25), an Acer Revo ($200), an HDMI cable and an external Storage solution (2 TB for less than $200). Preinstall it and charge them $500-$600, depending on how much you value your time. Setup a website and sell the system as a preconfigured bundle.

But of anything to complain about, the remote is the least likely candidate. Any number of articles say specifically to get a Windows MCE Remote. Even if you install LIRC yourself, it asks you specifically which remote you bought. It is listed, rather clearly, as "Windows MCE Remote."
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#11
kortina Wrote:I find the research, and building an enjoyable part of the process. But sadly for most of my friends, and I dare say the general public, the enjoyment for them is watching content.

If they are that consumer-oriented, how do they plan to obtain content? The users you describe seem a bit too limited to actually add content to the system. Since adding the content is often considerably more complex than installing the system, you have explained your theoretical friends out of the intented user-base.

kortina Wrote:XBMC is by far the best way to have the content delivered from a slick user interface, and intuative remote control.

People enjoy iPod and iPhone for their slick UI and ease of use. Some tech people enjoy jailbreaking their phones, but it is just not for everyone.
If you follow any of the suggestions and buy a $25 Windows MCE Remote and receiver, you will not have issues running XBMC Live. Installing it under XBMCbuntu is one command and picking the obviously labeled remote from a list. We cannot make it any simpler than that.

kortina Wrote:Getting back to the topic of remotes, HDMI-CEC is an obvious choice, adding some smarts to XBMC to do some simple tasks like switch to the correct input, and turn the amp on and to the correct input would put the usability beyond any other product that exists. The technology is there, but no main stream vendor has made it work correctly because they are all attempting to capture the market. (EG: buy the sony TV, and the Sony DVD, and the Sony amp etc).

XBMC Developers are not tainted by a commercial interest. Which is why this has a chance to suceed.

Scenario:
User has a Panasonic TV, a Yamaha Amp, and an AsRock ION.

Setp1) Plug ION into HDMI1
Step2) Download XBMCLive to your PC/Mac/Linux
Step3) Run "Create USB Stick" that will turn the download into something useful.
Step4) Put USB stick into the AsRock and Install
Step5) Using the remote, go to the settings in XBMC.
Step6) Tell XBMC that you have a Panasonic TV
Step7) XBMC will ask you which model?, and which HDMI port you have used?
Step8) Watch the XBMC magic as default Macros/Events trigger.

Name one commercial product that does this. How many really nice Blu-Ray players attempt to run your TV for you? There is a simple Unix principle carried forward in Linux and many open source projects: build simple reusable components that do one thing well. XBMC is about content. XBMC is not about overcoming remote-control confusion by people.

kortina Wrote:After 1 hour of screen saver, XBMC turns off your TV and Amp, then goes to sleep.
Most TVs will turn themselves off if they lose video signal for a specific amount of time. Seems the correct way to manage this is in the power controls for XBMC. Nobody implements this for an amp because there is no signal for it on an audio feed.

Also, this assumes that XBMC is the only device attached to that screen. This is a poor assumption in the majority of cases.

kortina Wrote:When XBMC wakes up, it will Turn on your TV and Switch your amp to the correct inputs.
Why do I want my HTPC running my TV again? Which consumer devices do this? Technically you could do it with IR blasters attached and running under Linux, but to what end? A very real possibility is that you end up switching away from another device when you turn on XBMC. In a PIP/POP environment or multidisplay environment this would be rather counterproductive.


I understand your concerns, but I believe our best bet is to have XBMC behave as a good consumer device, to the extent possible. I do not want to see XBMC fail miserably at managing my home entertainment experience. I would rather see it succeed at a manageable subset: cataloging, presenting and delivering content.
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#12
Well, I think many of us have completely lost focus in our little geek world...

I think now than the CEC thing is simply not possible for hardware limitations, but if it was, if the user had an HDMI-CEC capable TV and connected the system through HDMI (very reasonable assumptions), XBMC should detect and use CEC fully automatic. So the steps would be:

A) with CEC:

Step 1: Use it

B) without CEC:

Step 1: Buy things
Step 2: Connect things
Step 3: Configure things
Step 4: Use it

So, for all that ppl that asks "why"... well, because yo avoid the "buy, connect, configure" steps!!!!!!! How can't that be obvious to everyoneHuh? Some even say that "you simply need to..." Well, the answer is "because you simply do NOT need to..."

I know that it is easy (for you) and even fun (for you), and that you probably don't mind having another remote (or buying and configuring a third, universal, one), that you have your HTPC's remote sensor in a place to get correct signals and do not mind having it hanging somewhere somehow or have even modded the case to hide the sensor. But remember, not eveyone is like you!

Having CEC would seem for the common user almost like magic, like a lot of other things seem to be now when the system is properly configured (I am thinking in things like automatically downloading and showing DVD covers and plot of movies, not requiring any codec configuration, seamless downloading and using subtitles, automatic source configuration through avahi...)

Unfortunately, as I said, I think that HDMI-CEC is simply not possible with current hardware, at least not without some additional box and configuration that kind of defeats the whole purpose.
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#13
BTW, in the geek competition, the Sheldon award goes, without dispute, to Megacrypto for his link to that "simple" and "cool" IR solution!!!!!!.

The writers of "the big bang theory" could take some good inspiration from this thread!!!
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#14
Why IR universal remotes DON'T work for me, and why CEC would solve the problem:

Take for example, a new Samsung 7000 series TV. It has nice nifty little 'widgets' such as Skype and Yahoo! built in. I also have a logitech harmony controlling it, my HTPC, DVD, etc..

These widgets use the universal 'up, down, left, right, ok' type keys on the remote.

Say I am watching a movie via XBMC on my HTPC.

Now, if I assign those keys to XBMC on my HTPC, they no longer do anything on the TV. If I receive an incoming call on Skype through the TV, I have to pause the movie while ensuring it's it control mode for the HTPC and not the TV, press three (or more, depending on where in the menu I was last) buttons on the remote to switch it over to control the TV, and then use the arrows there to control it. Then, once I have completed the call, I have to repeat the process all over again.

With CEC, I could use the control pad on the universal remote to pass the commands to the TV, and when the TV had nothing 'in focus', those commands would go automatically to the HTPC via CEC. When the TV has something in focus, it doesn't pass the commands via CEC. That would mean, incoming call on Skype via the TV, one button to answer, automatically pauses movie and answers... One button...

The corresponding DVD player with the TV does this flawlessly via CEC.

While the CEC functionality doesn't exist in XMBC or on any HTPC I have seen, I find it much easier to keep both the original TV remote and the universal remote beside each-other, simply because I don't want to miss a call while I am fumbling through menus on the universal remote to switch the keys from one device to another.

This could NOT be achieved with a universal remote, simply because they are ONE WAY communication devices. They can send a command, but have absolutely no awareness of what state your system(s) are currently in.

Universal remotes have their place, but so does CEC. In my case, a universal remote does NOT solve the problem, it creates a new one. CEC could solve numerous problems that current universal remotes do not.
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#15
Not disagreeing with you here, I think HDMI-CEC would be a great addition, but just trying to help you solve your example problem (I know it's not what you were asking for).

I have a similar setup to you. What about creating an activity called "Use Skype". You can use the Harmony software to automatically "pause" when it leaves the XBMC activity, automatically remap the direction keys and select to control the TV when you're in that activity. It should only involve two key presses total "Activities > Use Skype", and you could probably even add some nice softkeys on the Harmony remote that are specific to Skype.
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