[poofyhairguy]

The only thing I would say is I feel ION acceleration isn't quite perfect yet - I have yet to see a completely stutter free experience and there are a lot of threads about stutter - a lot of people don't even see it, as it's very minor, but it's definitely there on some files....that's one advantage of CPU decoding (in theory, I haven't really tried it). It may be that with different setups you will won't get it - hence I am little jealous of the above comment about Avatar palying perfectly because I am yet to see it!

CPU decoding doesn't fix that kind of "stutter." Trust me. I have tons of hardware I have thrown at XBMC. Heck I have a little Mini ITX project box that purely uses CPU decoding (Intel GPU) just so I can really flesh out the differences. I am picky. If I could do better I would.

What fixes that kind of stutter is elimination of pulldown. I though everyone was nuts too, then I ran this script on my ION box:

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=70068

That gives we perfect refresh rate matching, which makes motion as smooth as possible. Anything that "stutters" now is simply a bad encode, and it stutters just as quickly on my CPU decoding box.

But for Blu Ray rips designed to be played at 24p (even the huge Avatar rip), with my ION box I get silky smooth motion.

I wouldn't steer you wrong OP. In the last two years I have built over 4 HTPCs, ranging from ION boxes to quad core monsters. When everything is configured correctly, my ION box is easily my favorite HTPC platform. Its a safe play....

[poofyhairguy]

So as suggested, I'll get the SSD and run Linux or XBMC Live on it. From what I can gather - the 330 Atom with ION GPU will provide full 1080p playback with no stutter. Has anyone experienced stutter with a setup like this?

As I said above, get 24p working and you will have silky smooth playback with a dual core ION box.

Can anyone suggest a good base nettop system to go for? At the moment I'm getting confused with the myriad options available between ASRock, Shuttle, Jetway, etc etc etc

I LOVE my Zotac based system, so I often recommend this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6856173005

That doesn't come with a HD, so add your own SSD easy.

Are there any that have ION2 rather than ION v1 GPU? I guess this is a good future-proof way to go.

For XBMC use ION1 and ION2 are pretty much the same. Intel kinda punked Nvidia for ION2 so instead of beating ION1 its more on the same level as ION1.

Go for whatever is cheaper, there aren't any significant power differences from what I have learned.

On that note, are there any fanless nettop systems that run larger/more powerful processors than the Atom?

Asrock has their "core" series, but those come with Intel GPUs (terrible for HTPCs). With one of those you are going all CPU all the time.

Apple of course has their Mac Mini's, which are perfect for the task, at their usually high price.

Dell has a line of AMD based HTPCs that are pretty much worthless because they use AMD GPUs. AMD GPU + Linux = Fail.

Personally for local playback I think an ION box is the best you can do for value......

[prostuff1]

So as suggested, I'll get the SSD and run Linux or XBMC Live on it. From what I can gather - the 330 Atom with ION GPU will provide full 1080p playback with no stutter. Has anyone experienced stutter with a setup like this?

Can anyone suggest a good base nettop system to go for? At the moment I'm getting confused with the myriad options available between ASRock, Shuttle, Jetway, etc etc etc

Are there any that have ION2 rather than ION v1 GPU? I guess this is a good future-proof way to go.

On that note, are there any fanless nettop systems that run larger/more powerful processors than the Atom?

TIA
Steve

The ION v1 based boxes i think are better supported and work better out of the box. The JetWay minitop i have works with a few tweaks that once setup i don't have to change again. The only downside for me right now is that my remote (Logitech Harmony) does not work like i would want it to. The JetWay has built in IR but the mappings and stuff just are not quite right. I can control the XBMC machine via my iPod Touch for now, but am hoping to get the remote working soon.

[bossanova808]

CPU decoding doesn't fix that kind of "stutter." Trust me. I have tons of hardware I have thrown at XBMC. Heck I have a little Mini ITX project box that purely uses CPU decoding (Intel GPU) just so I can really flesh out the differences. I am picky. If I could do better I would.

What fixes that kind of stutter is elimination of pulldown. I though everyone was nuts too, then I ran this script on my ION box:

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=70068

That gives we perfect refresh rate matching, which makes motion as smooth as possible. Anything that "stutters" now is simply a bad encode, and it stutters just as quickly on my CPU decoding box.

But for Blu Ray rips designed to be played at 24p (even the huge Avatar rip), with my ION box I get silky smooth motion.

I have used that script as well and my TV (Panasonic V50 plasma) switches succesfully to 24p (technically it switches to this mode:
"1920x1080_24" : 1920 x 1080 @ 23.97/24 Hz (CEA-861B Format 32))

... and I am well familiar with pulldown, and what 23.97/24 should look like when panning etc. But even with all this - playback with some sources - mt2s files straight from decrypted blurays - is still not *perfectly smooth* - but many people won't even notice the tiny timing errors I am talking about.

Playback on many direct blurays is pretty much perfect...but not all. I suspect a lot of people who think they have perfect 24p playback actually have left engaged their TVs smooth motion feature for 24hz and this is masking the errors (just a guess mind - it's phrases like 'silky smooth' that bring this thought to mind - 24/23.97 isn't really all that silky smooth, and that's kind of the point - it's precisley that low frame rate that gives film it's distinct look). When I have my 'smooth film' feature on - everything is very very smooth - too smooth, looks like video - but it seems to mask the little timing errors although if you really watch they are still there. Some people like that super smooth look but I am definitely not one of them (probably because I am a professional image maker and I am more than a little picky on image quality).

Anyway, we're talking about a level of perfection above just getting basic 24/23.97 playback going on. I suspect Dharma already solves some/most of these issues but I haven't really had a chance to test it propely on my mains setup so my mid camelot->dharma svn is not really the best test. I believe VC1 is fixed which is totally broken on my current version, too.

And we're well of the topic - sorry!

Overall, I certainly agree that the ION is definitely the way to go for a snappy, cheap, easy experience. Just not sure it's quite perfect yet.

One good way to test this is to play an Avatar on a real bluray on exactly the same tv right next to avatar on your ION - it will make the little XBMC/ION glitches more noticeable...little stutters, the messy beginning to playback, the funny syncing after pause/unpause - nothing really major, and certainly nothing bad enough to detract from the whole XBMC experience with the skins/library/accesibility/plugins/etc/etc that make it so very awesome. Just little things it would be nice if were not there for the perfect bluray quality playback experience (oh, and obviously hd audio support).

[matejdro]

Just for information, I'm currently running XBMC on Asus EEE 701 (900mhz celeron, 512MB ram, ancient intel graphics chip) and XBMC interface is running at full speed, except for video library which is probably being slowed down by all those posters and background images.

Skin is default (confluence).

[Bram77]

You take out the one in there and swap it for an SSD. If you're streaming, you only need a tiny boot drive - mine is 32 GB and it's ample - would even be enough for a dual boot win7 and Live setup if I could be bothered with Windows.

The only thing I would say is I feel ION acceleration isn't quite perfect yet - I have yet to see a completely stutter free experience and there are a lot of threads about stutter - a lot of people don't even see it, as it's very minor, but it's definitely there on some files....that's one advantage of CPU decoding (in theory, I haven't really tried it). It may be that with different setups you will won't get it - hence I am little jealous of the above comment about Avatar palying perfectly because I am yet to see it!

No problems at all, playing Avatar in BlueRay format on my Asrock ION330-HT. 100% smooth playback with XBMC Live (xbmcfreak version with latest SVN).
A lot of the interface snappyness depends on what skin you use. Confluence is very good. A lot of other skins not so...

[steve.lorimer]

Overall, I certainly agree that the ION is definitely the way to go for a snappy, cheap, easy experience. Just not sure it's quite perfect yet.

So is there an alternative, albeit perhaps more expensive, that does do the job? It would also be nice to have something that is a little future-proof.

It has to be quiet and it mustn't be conspicuous or look like a computer.

Any suggestions?

TIA
Steve

[poofyhairguy]

It has to be quiet and it mustn't be conspicuous or look like a computer.

If you want:

-Quiet

-And guaranteed futureproof

Then your only real option is a Micro ATX setup. I will tell you right now it won't play the files better than an ION box can today, but with a Micro ATX setup you can add in a new GPU at some point to take advantage of future GPU technologies (3D, HD bitstreaming, etc.).

Micro ATX is also good in that if you do it right (doing it right is getting a case with no fan smaller than 120mm) it can be more quiet than smaller boxes by a lot.

My last main HTPC was Micro ATX based and was silent. I gave it up because of the one disadvantage of Micro ATX - size.

It comes down to your priorities.

I can tell you right now, ION boxes can playback the content as good as anything else out there for XBMC. I have tried it all - Micro ATX + more powerful than ION GPU, an Apple TV with the broadcom card, a Mini ITX box that CPU decodes, a Mac mini, etc.

ION still plays the best as of now. Might not be the best possible on the planet compared to expensive hardware Blu Ray players and the like, but its the best XBMC can do.

Does that mean that ION1 or ION2 isn't magically not made ancient when the ION3s and ION4s come out with crazy new features (like 3D)? No way. That is life in computerville.

So you kinda have to pick your poison- either something small or something upgradable. I made a box that is both, but it was hard and expensive.

If you want to go the Micro ATX route, there are many good cases (Silverstone) that look like AV receivers or something. If you want to go that route I am happy to put together a build on Newegg for you....

[poofyhairguy]

One good way to test this is to play an Avatar on a real bluray on exactly the same tv right next to avatar on your ION - it will make the little XBMC/ION glitches more noticeable...little stutters, the messy beginning to playback, the funny syncing after pause/unpause - nothing really major, and certainly nothing bad enough to detract from the whole XBMC experience with the skins/library/accesibility/plugins/etc/etc that make it so very awesome. Just little things it would be nice if were not there for the perfect bluray quality playback experience (oh, and obviously hd audio support).

AH HA! I figured it out!

What you are experiencing is not the limitations with the ION, its the limitations of XBMC's underlying playback engine.

I promise you everything you experience- the "slow start," the "initial stutter after play/pause," and the "random stutter after scene change."- happen no matter what platform you use.

In fact, VDPAU handles it MUCH better than the alternatives. With CPU decoding, after the initial start on a Blu Ray rip you see visual tears that make VDPAU's slight slowdown seem mild in comparison. With an AppleTV + broadcom the slowness after play/pause lasts twice as long. Actually as far as covering XBMC's flaws, ION does pretty good.

The ONLY limitations of ION I know if are that:

1. Its not as good with interlaced content. An ION is a 9400m, while good de-interlacing comes in at around the 9500 GT level with Nvidia GPUs. ION2 is in the same boat (its a 210gt when a 220gt is needed).

But the ONLY time I have experienced any interlacing content that bad is from local live TV broadcasts (via HDhomerun). CBS in particular is rough. But the PVR branch is not in the next stable version and is maybe a year or two from release.

The yaVDR people are working on it (especially for the ION box friendly HDhomerun), and apparently they have a compromise de-interlacing for ION that works pretty good!

2. ION can't bitstream HD Audio. It CAN pass HD audio as PCM through HDMI (which I use and which sounds exactly the same), but it will never make the DTS HD light on your receiver light up which is a big disadvantage to all those that need that pointless light to feel good about themselves. Super high end Nvidia GPUs can do this, but no current HTPC Nvidia GPUs do. I expect this to be a feature in ION3, but it might be a LONG time before it works in Linux.

3. ION1 can't upscale Divx. ION2 can, but that feature is disabled in XBMC currently.

[protonchris]

If you want to go the Micro ATX route, there are many good cases (Silverstone) that look like AV receivers or something. If you want to go that route I am happy to put together a build on Newegg for you....

I would be interested in taking a look at your recommendations for a micro ATX system.

[poofyhairguy]

Sure!

I would get this case:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6811163166

With its 120mm fans, its plenty quiet.

I would get this combo:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealD...mbo.499635

That is enough CPU power to decode by CPU if you want, and my favorite mobo maker. In fact, I used that mobo is a recent desktop build for a friend and it was nice. Only problem is that its GPU is no good, fix that by getting one of these:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6814134100

That GPU is Nvidia's top HTPC card as far as I am concerned. That card is the best fanless version I have found.

I like this RAM:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6820148163

I like this SSD for the OS drive:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6820227461

Here is a CPU heat sink with a quiet 120mm fan:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6835185129

[poofyhairguy]

As a bonus, here is my current Mini ITX HTPC setup. I use this case:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6811154100

I use this mobo:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6813500036

I bought one of these PCIe riser cards:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Flexible-PCI-Express...27abd67593

And a Pico psu:

http://cgi.ebay.com/120W-DC-DC-PicoPSU-1...1e55a50f55

I used some low profile Kingston ram I bought locally (2GB) and a OCZ SSD like recommended above. With my setup I get the smallness of Mini ITX and ION, with the option to add a better GPU later!

[steve.lorimer]

Thanks for all the input folks.

I'm in the UK so won't be using newegg - but thanks nonetheless phg.

I've decided to go with the Asrock 330HT and a 32GB Corsair SSD.

I'll report back with my experiences!

Thanks again
Steve

[PANiCnz]

I would get this combo:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealD...mbo.499635

That is enough CPU power to decode by CPU if you want, and my favorite mobo maker. In fact, I used that mobo is a recent desktop build for a friend and it was nice. Only problem is that its GPU is no good, fix that by getting one of these:

If you want future proof I would recommend a motherboard with the 880G chipset, not overly different from the 785G in the motherboard listed above but it is AMD lastest and the GPU is noticably better if you ever end up using Windows.

[poofyhairguy]

Thanks for all the input folks.

I'm in the UK so won't be using newegg - but thanks nonetheless phg.

I've decided to go with the Asrock 330HT and a 32GB Corsair SSD.

I'll report back with my experiences!

Thanks again
Steve

Oops, I'm sorry. Please report back your findings, and congratulations!