HTPC Component Feedback
#1
I have been running XBMC on an original XBox for several years but would like a XBMC system that is capable of HD. I started to put together a wish list for a system about a year ago but decided to hold off and see how Blu-Ray support for Linux would progress. With the launch of Netflix in Canada, and lack of a Linux solution for Netflix, I have been considering the option of using Windows as the OS. There is a good chance I'll abandon Netflix and Blu-Ray for now and go with Linux in the end but I want to make sure my components will work well regardless which OS I choose.

I was fairly confident in my choices a year ago, but with newer CPU and GPU options I'm not sure what is best. I'm hoping for some feedback on my list to help steer me in the right direction:

Case: HD-Plex H5.ODD
Motherboard: Zotac GF9300-D-E ITX
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3GHz 6MB 65W 1333FSB
Memory: Corsair XMS2 4GB (2X2GB) PC8500
SSD Drive: OCZ Vertex 2 Extended Sandforce 60GB 2.5IN SATA2

I realize that the Intel E8400 is overkill for video playback, especially for a Linux HTPC, but a beefier CPU seems to be necessary for things like HD Flash. I'm assuming that transcoding with MakeMKV would also benefit from a decent CPU if I'm going to be playing with Blu-Ray support in Linux.

Many people seem to be recommending Core i3 processors now, is there any benefit of the Core i3/i5/i7 architecture for building a HTPC? The integrated graphics are not suited for Linux so I would think an external GPU would be necessary but does the CPU offer anything to make it worth while? The TDP of these chips is also higher so I would be worried about cooling the CPU with the fanless heatsink system of the HD-Plex chassis (although I would need to find another case if I was forced to use an external card anyway).

Another popular choice now appears to be the Nvidia GT430/GT240/GT220 cards. The GeForce 9300 can handle 1080p, especially with VDPAU, but is there anything that the newer Nvidia cards offer that would make them a better choice for a HTPC?

Thanks for taking the time to read my post, I look forward to your replies.
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#2
I have spoken with the guys at HD-Plex and they are planning to release a version of the H5 chassis that supports a slim optical drive. The space savings apparently allow the installation of one expansion card. The H5.SODD chassis allows me to keep with my case choice but still keeps my options open if I need to go with an external GPU.

I would appreciate any feedback on my component choices, especially in comparison to today's CPU and graphics options.

Thanks
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#3
I just cannot recommend a Mini ITX 775 build. I have been playing with Mini ITX 775 for about a month and a half now and I think the heat of the Core2Duo CPUs seriously prevents it from being a really good HTPC platform.

For the money I would MUCH rather have an i3. An i3 is WAY cooler than any Core2Duo, has idle power usage of an Atom, and is more than powerful enough for any task.

Don't go by TDP, that is a guideline. In use an i3 blows away the 775 CPUs to the point where you shouldn't even consider something else.

You are right though that by going this route you have to deal with the i3 GPU. It is terrible, so the best case is the i3 plus a external Nvidia GPU.

Of Nvidia GPUs a GT210 is a 9300 basically. But you step up to a GT220 and you get enough power for de-interlacing Live TV, and the GT430 can playback 3D content.


So now for my advice:
Forget Netflix and Windows. You seem to be on the edge with it anyway.

Any Netflix enabled Blu Ray player gets access to a better Netflix stream than computers get. Forget Blu Ray support. Blu Ray in XBMC is a bag of hurt. Linux use only makes it worse.


Any Linux-based ION HTPC + cheap Netflix enabled Blu Ray player gives you everything you want at a cheaper overall cost than building that HTPC monster machine. Then you have everything -1080p XBMC, Blu Rays, Netflix- all easily accessible with no mice and keyboards like is needed for a monster HTPC that does everything...

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#4
@poofy,

What do you think about an ION ITX 775 with this 35W celeron processor?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6819116039

-Wes
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#5
That's the exact CPU I'm running with 1GB of RAM and a GT220.
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#6
waldo22 Wrote:@poofy,

What do you think about an ION ITX 775 with this 35W celeron processor?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6819116039

-Wes

I have that exact processor and I find it is the best 775 for heat. It will work great.

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#7
Thanks for the response @poofyhairguy.

I've been following blu-ray playback with Linux and XBMC for a while and I think you nailed it with your "bag of hurt" comment Smile

Although Linux and XBMC are not ready for blu-ray or Netflix, I feel that it will come eventually. I considered an ION based system initially but decided on something a little beefier to future proof the system in case things like blu-ray, HD flash or Netflix come sooner rather than later. That being said, I'll heed your advice about the Core2Duo CPU's and go with Core i3 build.

Here is a revised list utilizing an LGA1156 MB and CPU:

Case: HD-Plex H5.SODD
Motherboard: Zotac H55 ITX
CPU: Intel Core i3 530 2.93GHZ 4MB 73W
GPU: ECS Silent Series NSGT220-1GQS-H GeForce GT 220
Memory: Corsair 4GB DDR3 (2X2GB) DDR3-1333
SSD Drive: OCZ Vertex 2 Extended Sandforce 60GB 2.5IN SATA2

While Zotac is not the first name that comes to mind when thinking about motherboards, I've read great things about the GF9300-D-E for HTPC use. The H55 is also the board that the guy at HD-Plex has been using so I know it will work well with the H5.SODD case...but there seem to be mixed reviews on the H55 (I've read issues of freezing but that appears to be resolved with a BIOS update).

I'm not completely decided between the GT220 and the GT430 yet. I'm not concerned with 3D content but I'm trying to discern the differences between the two cards in terms of audio compatibility. For my uses I think the GT220 will do just fine and I recall you recommended the ECS GT220 in another post Smile

If you, or anyone else, has anything to add I'd really appreciate the feedback.

Cheers!
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#8
fatedstranger Wrote:Case: HD-Plex H5.SODD
Motherboard: Zotac H55 ITX
CPU: Intel Core i3 530 2.93GHZ 4MB 73W
GPU: ECS Silent Series NSGT220-1GQS-H GeForce GT 220
Memory: Corsair 4GB DDR3 (2X2GB) DDR3-1333
SSD Drive: OCZ Vertex 2 Extended Sandforce 60GB 2.5IN SATA2

I literally couldn't do better. Perfect futureproof HTPC build. Stick with that GT220, it is my favorite one on the market.

Please, pics!!!!

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#9
I've been reading up on the audio side of things to make sure that my build will support what I need and I must say I'm a little confused. There's lots of talk about Bitstream vs LPCM but nobody seems to explain why someone would want one over the other. If I understand things correctly, multi-channel LPCM would be useful in situations such as:

- The receiver supports multi-channel PCM but not the audio codec.
- The audio device/drivers can not bitstream the codec.
- The DAC in the player is better than that in the receiver.

In these situations, the codec (such as Dolby Digital TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio) is transcoded by the player and streamed as 8 channel LPCM to the receiver.

If a DVD came with a lossy codec like Dolby Digital or DTS as well as the uncompressed audio, using LPCM would be the best option there as well, but personally I have never seen this on a DVD. Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio are supposed to be lossless codecs so I don't see how uncompressed multi-channel audio would be an advantage for blu-ray discs. I would think that bitstreaming HD audio would be better because it takes less bandwidth and offloads the decoding onto the receiver. I would also expect that most receivers have better quality DAC's than those in HTPC components so offloading would provide the best sound. I'm not sure if it make any difference but hypothetically, offloading the audio decoding to the receiver would also help keep the card run cooler.

So if I'm understanding things correctly, all the hype about LPCM is due to the fact that there has been no support for HD audio bitstreaming in HTPC components. From what I can tell, only newer model video cards support it but figuring out exactly what Nvidia cards support what in terms of audio is really difficult. All the specifications on the Nvidia site simply indicate whether the card has HDA or not, it does not give any specific details. All the website says about HDA is this:

"High definition audio brings consumer electronics quality sound to the PC delivering high quality sound from multiple channels. Using HDA, systems can deliver 192 kHz/32-bit quality for eight channels, supporting new audio formats."

<sarcasm>That's helpful.</sarcasm>

So I've been depending on card reviews to try and figure out what cards support what. Some card reviews indicate that the GT220 has 8 channel LPCM while others say it does not (is this dependent on the manufacturer?) . Bitstreaming Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD-MA wasn't available until the GT4xx series cards so it looks like I would need the GT430 to even entertain the idea of bitstreaming HD audio. Even if I did get a card the supported it, there's the issue of whether or not the drivers and the player will support it. Even recent posts indicate that it could be a while before we see it working under Linux (due to issues recreating the protected path) so it seemed hopeless...then I came across this:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=157347

It looks like Anssi Hannula is working on patches for FFmpeg that should allow HDMI pass-through on Linux for TrueHD and DTS-HD. This is fantastic news and if it's true I want to be sure my card allows it. I'm pretty sure that the GT220 will not work so I think the next best option is the GT430 right? A lot of the passively cooled GT430's I've seen have heat syncs that protrude behind the card. The case I want to use has little to no clearance behind the card but quite a lot of room in front of it. Can anyone recommend a good passively cooled GT430? Are there any good passive VGA coolers that will work on the GT430?

I contacted the guy that builds the HD-Plex chassis and he recommends waiting for the Sandybridge CPU's and MB's to come out. They are supposed to run a lot cooler. He says that the i3 530 is fine for 30-50% load (temp would be around 40-50C). If it is running above 50% for long periods of time the CPU may run hot. I'm really not sure what to expect in terms of CPU load. Assuming I have a decent GPU that can handle most of the decoding, what should I expect for CPU load during HD video playback? The i3 chips aren't due out until February and I expect it will take a while for good Linux support and for things to generally stabilize. I'm not sure if I want to wait that long to start the build. Sad

Sorry for such a long post, I've actually been working on it for a couple of days now so it's sort of morphed into this beast as I've been learning!
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#10
fatedstranger Wrote:- The receiver supports multi-channel PCM but not the audio codec.
- The audio device/drivers can not bitstream the codec.
- The DAC in the player is better than that in the receiver.

Add two:

-Ability to use open source friendly (and tried and true) FLAC for multichannel audio (which gives you lossless audio at an overall lower file size)
-Up until very recently superior container support.


And honestly all together, its a wash. Lossless audio sounds like lossless audio in pretty much all situations. Double blind tests have shown that it is pretty much impossible to tell the difference between the core DTS HD track and the full lossless track- even to golden ears- so no human on the planet can hear the difference between where the lossless audio is decoded on receiver equipment that treats it the same.

All the other points are kinda inconsequential. Decoding Dolby Tru HD to PCM barely uses a little more CPU (I mean, atoms can do it), and with HDMI it doesn't matter how the bandwidth is used because its there. Doesn't wear out the equipment to use PCM over HDMi vs Bitstreaming DTS HD, or something like that.

The only situations that I think bitstreaming is essential is to those that have a $1K+ receiver that has extra effects ONLY for DTS HD tracks and Dolby True HD tracks. For the higher end AV receivers bitstreaming is a big deal.

The real reason most would want bitstreaming is because only with bitstreaming can XBMC ever play BD isos. Also because it does not seem an open source library for decoding DTS HD will exist soon the easiest way to deal with it for open source ironically is to bitstream it.

Now are far as hardware goes:

The recent work on HD Bitstreaming FFMPEG is amazing for the fact that it works on GT2xx level hardware. I have already seen it confirmed working on ION2, and I think it will work on GT210s in the long run (I got one to test).

But with that said, the GT430 is probably the best HTPC card out there now (especially the fanless Zotac version). The only downside with it is that unlike GT2xx models it is not plug and play with current XBMC Live builds- you have to do some commandline work. It is the definition of futureproof though- just yesterday I used mine to watch 3D content!!

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#11
Thanks for the reply @poofyhairguy, I appreciate all your help!

I didn't realize that the FFMpeg work should allow HD audio bitstreaming on the GT220, that's very good to know. I had read somewhere that the 2xx cards only allowed for Dolby Digital and DTS passthrough and that HD audio bitstreaming was added in the 4xx series cards. I've been trying to find a definitive guide to HDA on the 2xx and 4xx cards but information is pretty sparse!

I'm not afraid of the commandline, I've been using Linux since Slackware 4.0 (although I've been pretty spoiled with Ubuntu these last couple of years). The only thing that worries me about the Zotac GT430 is that the heatsink wraps around the back of the card and I'm not sure if the case I want has enough clearance for it. I haven't been able to find any after market passive coolers for the GT430 either. If I can find an ECS Silent Series GT220 I'll grab it (although its proving to be a bit of a rare beast).

Any idea what sort of CPU load I should be expecting with the i3-530? I would think that 40-50% load is really quite high if most of the decoding is offloaded onto the GPU. I did find an article by someone using the Intel Core i3-530 and the integrated graphics and CPU load went from ~50% to ~10% during H.264 playback after enabling VAAPI acceleration. Is it reasonable to expect CPU load to be below 40% most of the time?

Cheers!
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#12
The price of your configuration comes to $800 without bluray drive and software. I would recommend buying off the shelf ASROCK 3D HTPC for $850 with bluray (slot loading) - add software and you are done.
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#13
XBMC running on an XBox was very appealing because it only cost me $80. I can see how the ASRock would be appealing too, but for the price I would rather build something myself. I like the freedom that a custom HTPC provides. I'm not locked in to any specific hardware or software. I can switch out components or upgrade as new technology is available. I have a choice about everything that goes into this build.

The specs on the ASRock look good though so I'll keep your suggestion in mind in case I abandon the build. Thanks for the reply!
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