Do you guys really like 24 fps?
#1
So, I’ve got my 120Hz LCD correctly playing 23.976/24 fps content judder-free but, I dunno, I find it a little blurry at times. And as you guys know, letting the TV do that interpolation stuff gives you a home video.

I haven’t been to a theatre in years so I don’t remember how pans appeared on the big screen, and I guess I never really looked for it. But I read somewhere that theatres show content at 48Hz, and double up each frame, which makes me wonder if a 240Hz TV would provide the closest experience to watching a movie in the theatre?

Just wondering how others feel. Do most use the interpolation? Don’t mind that soap-opera look?
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#2
I don't like 24p personally.

Even on my plasma (which does the frame tripling to 72hz like theaters do), and even with new movies (like my Avatar rip) watching at 24p introduces judder that is eliminated when the set does the old school 3:2 pulldown. The judder brought in by 24p content can only be fixed by interpolation, which is far from being an exact science at this point. I know some people actually LIKE 24p judder ("watching the movie as it was intended") but I personally can't stand it.

I like the effect of interpolation (especially for animated content) but the only interpolation technology I have seen that does not introduce a large amount of artifacts is Sony's tech. So you end up fixing one problem (3:2 pulldown) by introducing another problem (24p judder) which needs another fix (interpolation) that has another problem (interpolation artifacts).

My current solution is to just live with 3:2 pulldown. Movie directors for YEARS have known about that limitation so there are purposefully not a ton of panning shots in most movies (which is when 3:2 pulldown is at its worst). There doesn't seem to be any movement in Hollywood to shoot movies at a higher fps (removing the need for interpolation), instead the emphasis is on 3D.

With that said, I have discovered that even with the 24p mode (on my Samsung its called Cinema Smooth) turned off it is VERY beneficial to pass along the signal to the tv in 24p. By doing so on a modern TV you unlock a 3:2 pulldown mode that is far superior to what XBMC provides. In fact on my plasma when it is passed 24p on the scenes with panning there is only ever a slight jerk revealing the 3:2 pulldown which is much better than the alternative.

I can't wait to read other people's responses though.

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#3
LCDs without interpolation will always feel blurry no matter what.

Frame interpolation in most cases produces picture artifacts and soap effect. I have Toshiba LCD 200Hz (100 Hz interpolation mixed with black frame insertion) which is from my experience best interpolation technology I've seen (no visible artifacts + minimum soap effect). Sony comes second. The rest, I don't like (for the reasons above)
Plasmas motion resolution is usually much better but still far from perfect to my taste (phosphor trailing, refresh rate flicker).

Recently I've purchased 3LCD FullHD Epson projector, it doesn't have any frame interpolation, but it's motion resolution is much better than any LCD/plasmas I've watched and I wouldn't hesitate to say it's perfect as much as 24p can be (compared to professional projectors in cinema)
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#4
poofyhairguy Wrote:With that said, I have discovered that even with the 24p mode (on my Samsung its called Cinema Smooth) turned off it is VERY beneficial to pass along the signal to the tv in 24p. By doing so on a modern TV you unlock a 3:2 pulldown mode that is far superior to what XBMC provides. In fact on my plasma when it is passed 24p on the scenes with panning there is only ever a slight jerk revealing the 3:2 pulldown which is much better than the alternative.

Interesting. I also have a Sammy plasma and I usually get tearing when 24p (match refresh rate) is turned ON in XBMC and I have Cinema Smooth ON.....I've just been turning both OFF. Never thought of turning 24p on in XBMC and Cinema Smooth OFF on the TV. Will have to give this shot to see if I notice any difference. Thanks.
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#5
my man poofy took my response but mine was more simplified......

the dumbfu*** in Hollywood won't move from the POS 24fps even though they should have way before now

So this lets some of the TV Manufacturers use this as a BIG feature even though it shouldn't be.....and even worse then this also gives some the ability to keep this "dark age" format for their higher end TV's to nudge a lot of us to spend more money because we NEED a POS format

have I said this is a POS format that should have definitely been gone with Hi Def TV's
WE ALL WE GOT
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#6
I'm a purist. 24fps material is played back at that framerate. I don't use any interpolation, even though my TV has it. I WILL however use the "film" modes which add black or grey frames in between the real frames on my SXRD Sony TV. It adds some flicker, but gives it more of a film feel (real film has a shutter that covers the light for a split second in between frames... this mimics that). SXRD is very capable of nearly instantaneous color changes, unfortunately the TV is a projection TV so nobody bought a lot of them and Sony stopped production of SXRD in everything but their projectors.

The interpolation modes are OK if you like that sort of thing, but I put it in the same ballpark as stretching 4x3 content to 16x9 just to fill the screen. Just because the TV can display 120hz of material, doesn't mean it should if the source only has 24.

I find even the standard 5x frames to be far superior to any pulldown... the judder drives me nuts on that TV since it displays it so quickly. On my 60hz LCD upstairs it doesn't bother me. I don't think that TV refreshes nearly as fast as the large Sony, so the frames blend on their own. The SXRD sets are known to have very fast rise/fall times.
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#7
After reading this thread I decided to go check out the settings on my tv (Sharp Aquos). It has a film mode that can be set to High, Low or Off. I currently have it off. I tried it on High (120hz). There is no judder but the playback is a bit disconcerting to say the least. It definitely has the Soap Opera Effect. (Oddly enough on low there is some slight judder). It feels more lifelike for sure when it is turned on and maybe that is the problem. I have a background in 3D modeling and I believe this effect has similarities with the term we call "The Uncanny Valley". Basically this means that it is so lifelike that the brain has difficulties processing it. In turn the image begins to look less real when in fact it more closely resembles true life. Anyway, I can't decide if I want to keep this mode on or off. XBMC has no difficulties playing it so I may try it out for a few days just to give it a fare try.

The one thing I don't really understand is why it is called film mode. I have never seen this effect in the big screen.
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#8
If you really like interpolation XBMC can do it using Avisynth and the DS player build. Here is a guide to get you most of the way:

http://www.tested.com/news/how-to-enable...files/329/

It does a good job of interpolation, but you need some serious CPU though. Like i5 or better, wouldn't touch without a quad core. It was fun to play with, but as I said I am used to pulldown so I accept it....

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#9
mr.sparkle Wrote:I haven’t been to a theatre in years so I don’t remember how pans appeared on the big screen, and I guess I never really looked for it. But I read somewhere that theatres show content at 48Hz, and double up each frame, which makes me wonder if a 240Hz TV would provide the closest experience to watching a movie in the theatre?
The reason that cinemas use 48 hertz is not because of smoother motion, it's because movie projectors that use film produce a flickering image, and 48 hertz flicker is far less noticeable than 24 hertz flicker.

It's somewhat comparable to using a CRT monitor at 60 hertz and at 85 hertz.
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Do you guys really like 24 fps?0