[SynstrShn]

So I have been trying to do a skin and can move the odd thing around but after that I can't figure out anything even with reading the tutorial and everything and now I'm just screwing things up and getting frustrated. And to be honest if I started posting all the questions I had I would just become way to much of an annoyance because I have no codding experience.

I would like to even be able to design a few pages so my question is does anyone know a good training course online or tutorial in XML that would help with skinning? Or did you guys all learn it through College and University?

[timdog82001]

So I have been trying to do a skin and can move the odd thing around but after that I can't figure out anything even with reading the tutorial and everything and now I'm just screwing things up and getting frustrated. And to be honest if I started posting all the questions I had I would just become way to much of an annoyance because I have no codding experience.

I would like to even be able to design a few pages so my question is does anyone know a good training course online or tutorial in XML that would help with skinning? Or did you guys all learn it through College and University?

I'm far from all knowing when it comes to skinning in xbmc, but I'm fairly capable and really just learned it by toying with an existing skin, reading a bit through the tutorial, but more than anything, just changing something in the code, then seeing what happened. I'd suggest taking a look at the "basic empty skin" stickied in the skin development thread, its a very simplified skin intended to help teach people how to skin.

[ZombieRobot]

i suggest starting with confluence because its a great skin to start with and it is maintained so it is up to date it also has nice code to follow never start with AEON the code is complex.
I build houses not skins so i had no coding experience i just did what you say and played with the code for someone who has never read any kind of code i found the wiki too hard at the time i just didnt understand once i got familiar with the basics i then could look at the wiki i am no pro by any means but now have the hang of it.

it takes a long long time (for me anyway like 4 to 6 hours a day, every day for the last 6 months) to learn if you dont know how to code

but if you love xbmc its worth it its a lot of fun but takes loads of dedication you will just get better and better then your coding will get faster and better good luck

[toebs]

I just started skinning, and i still very new to it. I am going thrue the confluence skin Home.xml file, just trying to figure out what is going on, in that code.
Then i try to change something and see how it affects the skin.
When i bump into something like
<control type="fixedlist"> i search in the XBMC skinning manual to see, what it says about that control.

Allso i read basics about XML in here
http://www.w3schools.com/xml/default.asp

I agree with you that it is confusing to start with, i posted some pretty basic(stupid?) questions in here lately, which has helped me move on

[SynstrShn]

thanks guys for the response! This community is awesome!...So there are guys like me out there! haha. All good tips thanks! Yeah I tried the Aeon skin and wow did I find out quick how hard that is! That's good to know though I'll just stick with it! Will probably take a year for me but yeah xbmc is definitely worth it! I've got a mockup idea and I'll throw that out there and go from there

[SynstrShn]

Yeah I definitely don't have the patience for it... every time I hit a brick wall and can't go anywhere! I almost finished home screen but then can't get a few things so I will go back to enjoying everyone else's skins. Great community though and the guys who do skins i really hand it to them!

[MrCrispy]

I'm dreaming here but it would be wonderful if there were a skin editor with live previews, like Visual Studio has. So one could make changes in xml code and in a window next to it, you would see the results instantly.

If there is feedback from the devs/users I will look into coding this. I have a rough idea what needs to be done but am not sure if its technically feasible.

[Jezz_X]

I'm dreaming here but it would be wonderful if there were a skin editor with live previews, like Visual Studio has. So one could make changes in xml code and in a window next to it, you would see the results instantly.

If there is feedback from the devs/users I will look into coding this. I have a rough idea what needs to be done but am not sure if its technically feasible.

Its called a text editor and xbmc running in windowed mode next to it and a key bound to the reload skin command

[Daydream]

So there are guys like me out there! haha.

Of course there are. There are 66,000 people subscribed to this forum. 6700 active. How many skinners? 25? 50? (who the heck really knows, I bet there are people coding for themselves and coming out of the woodwork only when they have something important). So maybe one in 130 is a way off prediction?

But the problem is a different one: you need somebody with xml skills and somebody with graphic (read Photoshop) skills. The probability a person would have both of these talents is scary slim. Hence the team working and it's still taking months (half a year?) to come up with something great.

Most often one gets the "read the wiki, check Confluence, check the empty skin" advices. All good ones. But they are not going to cut it. Quite a shame, that wiki is one of the best wiki I've seen for a technical project (the hours and patience to put that together, alone commands respect). But the imagination of this community will never be truly leveraged until skinning becomes easier, or at least faster (the coding part). Right now it's more or less a case of (paraphrasing, adapting) "from the outside looking in, you can’t understand it. From the inside looking out, we can’t explain it".

You either crack the logic of the code on your own, or go do something else, fly a kite or something.

What I'd suggest is, for the skilled skinners and the other people in the knowing, to write down a structural guide, how to code a skin. "You begin here" (I don't know - Home.xml) then you can go "there" (possible next XML files, just examples not all of them), and outline every time if this "there" can be something totally new ("at this point whatever you have in your window can be further customized with your own invention of customized xml - customize1.xml or whatever). And so on. If this can't be done because the flexibility of the skin engine is that great, the the said flexibility is starting to have negative effects on plain creativity.

Something with logic for regular people, not for people used to do programming (I can't emphasize this part enough, consider it blinking pink).

I don't know how to skin. I'm learning. Because of that maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm a Photoshop guy. I understand XML but I am not creative with it. So as far as I'm concerned I can say there is a huge gap between how my brain is wired and how the the brain of a programmer is wired (I have one next to me at work, he did some tools in .net for me, for XBMC). And currently there is no bridge over this gap.

[Jezz_X]

Daydream I guess the problem lies with the easier you make it for the everyday person to do the more you take away from the flexibility of what you can do.

If people post specific problems then the 20 or so active skinners you mention do try to help out but the problem is most people just say I want to do this and expect other people to tell them without even taking the time to research themselves

[Hitcher]

Something with logic for regular people, not for people used to do programming (I can't emphasize this part enough, consider it blinking pink).

I think you'll also find that we're not all programmers either (I'm a postman).

[blacklist]

I think you'll also find that we're not all programmers either (I'm a postman).

Like Kevin Costner? Neat!

I run a big box retailer. I can code a little, but mostly I'm a graphics guy.

Point is, I think you'll find that most of take it apon ourselves to learn this because we love XBMC and feel like we can add something to the project.

I agree with Jezz - while a gui might be nice - the power of the xbmc skinning engine is that it dives deep into the functionality and isn't just a glossy front over the same functions. The skinning system lets skinner almost completely change the way users interact with xbmc.

[ZombieRobot]

i build houses

[Jezz_X]

I think you'll also find that we're not all programmers either (I'm a postman).

I stack shelves at night in a grocery store

[Daydream]

Glad to know you guys

the power of the xbmc skinning engine is that it dives deep into the functionality and isn't just a glossy front over the same functions. The skinning system lets skinner almost completely change the way users interact with xbmc.

That is true but it comes with a price. I don't have the skinning knowledge to oppose you guys with articulated arguments more than I did, but it bothers me a bit that (it appears) everything is sacrificed in the name of the all mighty versatility. Mastering this versatility it's a very steep learning curve, so you made it super-versatile for an ever more restricted number of very skilled people (users to skinners ratio) and... wait, this starts to sound like a Murphy law .