2016-01-09, 13:56
Thanks Tolriq! Means a lot from you. And thanks for my own post Ned.
2016-01-09, 13:59
(2016-01-09, 13:47)Tolriq Wrote: Some called Joan of Arc Crazy but in the end as French I'm quite happy she was how she was because she was damn right
(Nothing related to Robotica strange and not clear message at all, but just a reminder that when lot's of people says the same things, maybe their are not all crazy
Are you saying Joan of Arc DID actually got a message from God to put Charles VII on the throne?
Not exactly an argument in favor of non-crazyness, if you ask me
2016-01-09, 14:02
Sorry for the noise but check out the conspiricy topic; it's fun. Another specific pointer for Ned: https://bulkzooi.wordpress.com/about/colophon/
2016-01-09, 14:06
Those tactics stopped working on me. But it's not nice to pulls those word out of context. Mismanaging non-chief. Better to give some clear guidance on some mentioned remarks.
btw: Your accusations towards me are ridiculous. Plain slender. I actually miss Spiff and Jmarshall since they make more sense than you. Too bad because I don't see you as a bad guy. Or bad for Kodi. Just for it's Foundation. But you are a victim, like there have been many.
That's why I tip my hat for all those devs fixing stuff and pushing Kodi forward but you need to manage the community and politics. Bulkzooi brough that message since 2009 and in 2016 Robotica want's to implement it.
btw: Your accusations towards me are ridiculous. Plain slender. I actually miss Spiff and Jmarshall since they make more sense than you. Too bad because I don't see you as a bad guy. Or bad for Kodi. Just for it's Foundation. But you are a victim, like there have been many.
That's why I tip my hat for all those devs fixing stuff and pushing Kodi forward but you need to manage the community and politics. Bulkzooi brough that message since 2009 and in 2016 Robotica want's to implement it.
2016-01-09, 14:17
(2016-01-09, 13:59)Koying Wrote:(2016-01-09, 13:47)Tolriq Wrote: Some called Joan of Arc Crazy but in the end as French I'm quite happy she was how she was because she was damn right
(Nothing related to Robotica strange and not clear message at all, but just a reminder that when lot's of people says the same things, maybe their are not all crazy
Are you saying Joan of Arc DID actually got a message from God to put Charles VII on the throne?
Not exactly an argument in favor of non-crazyness, if you ask me
Important is not where the message was from but that the message was more or less correct
Maybe a little like some of the message I try to pass (Except it's message from users / stats not God as sorry but I only believe in me for my future)
2016-01-09, 14:33
<scratches head>
At the risk of merely wandering into a minefield while dodging the CIA-piloted NYC 'planes, dead left-handed 'Beatles' guitarists and moonshot TV studios in an Arizona desert... can anyone enlighten me as to how "Foundation is doing a terrible job in being a good steward for the software"? Genuinely academic interest - I read the links that explain how you believe it's a poorly-incorporated or run Foundation (no comment), but I don't see how that immediately translates to the stewardship of the software, especially in the context of the Purpose to which Nate linked.
Everyone has a right to dislike how something is run - I rant enough at stores, TV stations, political parties, religious groups and pretty much anything that seems illogical - but that's not to say they're not doing exactly what they were set up to do. Unless it's embedded in a bylaw somewhere, the architecture, design, features, platforms and release policy aren't covered by the articles of incorporation. The only justified criticism is whether some of the more pointed recent posts we've had "encourage the software community to participate in further development", and even that is weak: it fails to pass any individual vs corporation test to me unless the Foundation can be shown to be encouraging such behaviour (or tolerating/condoning it beyond what is reasonable free speech).
Humour me. I'm just a bloke with remote control who barely uses any addons beyond PVR, after all.
At the risk of merely wandering into a minefield while dodging the CIA-piloted NYC 'planes, dead left-handed 'Beatles' guitarists and moonshot TV studios in an Arizona desert... can anyone enlighten me as to how "Foundation is doing a terrible job in being a good steward for the software"? Genuinely academic interest - I read the links that explain how you believe it's a poorly-incorporated or run Foundation (no comment), but I don't see how that immediately translates to the stewardship of the software, especially in the context of the Purpose to which Nate linked.
Everyone has a right to dislike how something is run - I rant enough at stores, TV stations, political parties, religious groups and pretty much anything that seems illogical - but that's not to say they're not doing exactly what they were set up to do. Unless it's embedded in a bylaw somewhere, the architecture, design, features, platforms and release policy aren't covered by the articles of incorporation. The only justified criticism is whether some of the more pointed recent posts we've had "encourage the software community to participate in further development", and even that is weak: it fails to pass any individual vs corporation test to me unless the Foundation can be shown to be encouraging such behaviour (or tolerating/condoning it beyond what is reasonable free speech).
Humour me. I'm just a bloke with remote control who barely uses any addons beyond PVR, after all.
2016-01-09, 14:39
Also, while I've already done this many times, I'll do it again, because I'm sure Robotica's weird stuff is going to rub off on others, who will want to know.
I'll explain the Foundation, to the best of my knowledge and ability.
6 years ago (or so, don't quote me on the exact timeline) XBMC started getting a lot of money in donations. In this situation, a lot meant like $15k a year or something. The Foundation was set up purely so Team XBMC could have a legal means of holding it and using it for things Team XBMC wanted to do.
Today, that's still pretty much the entire purpose and outcome of the Foundation. I know this, because I am currently the president of the foundation and have been one of five board members for something like 4 years. So I know exactly how much power the Foundation has: None, except that granted to it by Team Kodi.
The board actively dislikes making decisions, and so virtually all Foundation decisions are either punted and not decided on at all, or voted on by the entire membership, which, for all intents and purposes, means the entirety of Team Kodi.
The only goal of the Foundation is to earn enough money each year to pay for the things it is expected to pay for: attendance at conventions, DevCon, team t-shirts maybe, and hardware when necessary to further development. All other decisions and goals do not come from the Foundation, they come from Team Kodi, because, as stated, the board hates making decisions.
Team Kodi hates being affiliated with crappy piracy addons for all sorts of reasons. Not purely because the team wants Kodi to be known as a media player rather than an acquirer of content, but also because crappy piracy addons are terrible and break all the time, and the addon authors never have to provide support or feel the repercussions of their shoddy work. We get to receive all that heat ourselves.
Team Kodi hates the fact that people on Amazon and eBay are making money hand over fist selling these pirate boxes, because they are low quality, sellers aren't transferring knowledge to buyers, and it makes it much harder for Kodi to A) get more and better addons from actual real content makers, and B) be taken seriously enough to be on our maximum number of hardware platforms given our technical requirements (see Amazon kerfuffle from this summer).
None of that is coming from the Foundation, because the only real goal of the Foundation is to assist the team financially in whatever it wants to do, which mostly means pay for travel and hardware when necessary. The Team does also want the Foundation to try to stamp out all the sellers effectively giving our software a bad name with shoddy software, and the Foundation has been given authority by the team to try using the trademark the Foundation owns to do this.
As far as I can tell, that's it. In the four or so years that I've been one of five voting board members, paying for stuff and issuing the occasional (mostly ignored) takedown notices is pretty much the only thing the Foundation has done. Oh, we've also had the occasional t-shirt sale. If you want a t-shirt, you can buy one today! Every other major decision has been made collectively by Team Kodi.
.......
A few points against weird things Robotica had to say:
Distributing pirated addons inside software named Kodi, a trademark owned by the XBMC Foundation, is 100% in the realm of the Foundation, given the foundation is the one that owns the name.
I have genuinely no idea what conflicts of interest Robotica is talking about. Perhaps this would have been a good point if he'd actually listed one or two or a few, but he failed to list any, so there's no way to rebutt this point.
I've already posted all the Foundation documents. Articles of Incorporation don't get updated very frequently or possibly at all. I've never personally heard of an org updating them.
Back in 2009, when the articles of incorporation were written, the Team thought the foundation would own the code, but didn't understand that to own the code you have to have the copyright owner sign it over. So instead the code is owned by hundreds if not thousands of individuals and the Foundation does very little in relation to the code. Instead, Team Kodi makes all practical decisions with regards to things like who gets write access on Github. The Foundation manages trademarks at the behest of the team.
The word "clearly" is a word used by a person who is bullshitting and doesn't know whether something is true or not. There is, as far as I know, no other reason to use the word.
The bylaws don't have a 1a. You are speaking of the Articles of Incorporation.
The Foundation is fine and does not stink, because its only purpose is to pay for the furthering of Team Kodi's nonprofit goals and to manage IP like trademarks, and it performs those functions perfectly correctly.
Finally everything in that last post... man, we take things pretty literally here. That post sounded weird and faintly stalker-ish. I would genuinely be uncomfortable meeting the person who wrote that in real life. Perhaps in the future you could write in a way where you aren't talking about your clones and killing yourself.
I'll explain the Foundation, to the best of my knowledge and ability.
6 years ago (or so, don't quote me on the exact timeline) XBMC started getting a lot of money in donations. In this situation, a lot meant like $15k a year or something. The Foundation was set up purely so Team XBMC could have a legal means of holding it and using it for things Team XBMC wanted to do.
Today, that's still pretty much the entire purpose and outcome of the Foundation. I know this, because I am currently the president of the foundation and have been one of five board members for something like 4 years. So I know exactly how much power the Foundation has: None, except that granted to it by Team Kodi.
The board actively dislikes making decisions, and so virtually all Foundation decisions are either punted and not decided on at all, or voted on by the entire membership, which, for all intents and purposes, means the entirety of Team Kodi.
The only goal of the Foundation is to earn enough money each year to pay for the things it is expected to pay for: attendance at conventions, DevCon, team t-shirts maybe, and hardware when necessary to further development. All other decisions and goals do not come from the Foundation, they come from Team Kodi, because, as stated, the board hates making decisions.
Team Kodi hates being affiliated with crappy piracy addons for all sorts of reasons. Not purely because the team wants Kodi to be known as a media player rather than an acquirer of content, but also because crappy piracy addons are terrible and break all the time, and the addon authors never have to provide support or feel the repercussions of their shoddy work. We get to receive all that heat ourselves.
Team Kodi hates the fact that people on Amazon and eBay are making money hand over fist selling these pirate boxes, because they are low quality, sellers aren't transferring knowledge to buyers, and it makes it much harder for Kodi to A) get more and better addons from actual real content makers, and B) be taken seriously enough to be on our maximum number of hardware platforms given our technical requirements (see Amazon kerfuffle from this summer).
None of that is coming from the Foundation, because the only real goal of the Foundation is to assist the team financially in whatever it wants to do, which mostly means pay for travel and hardware when necessary. The Team does also want the Foundation to try to stamp out all the sellers effectively giving our software a bad name with shoddy software, and the Foundation has been given authority by the team to try using the trademark the Foundation owns to do this.
As far as I can tell, that's it. In the four or so years that I've been one of five voting board members, paying for stuff and issuing the occasional (mostly ignored) takedown notices is pretty much the only thing the Foundation has done. Oh, we've also had the occasional t-shirt sale. If you want a t-shirt, you can buy one today! Every other major decision has been made collectively by Team Kodi.
.......
A few points against weird things Robotica had to say:
Distributing pirated addons inside software named Kodi, a trademark owned by the XBMC Foundation, is 100% in the realm of the Foundation, given the foundation is the one that owns the name.
I have genuinely no idea what conflicts of interest Robotica is talking about. Perhaps this would have been a good point if he'd actually listed one or two or a few, but he failed to list any, so there's no way to rebutt this point.
I've already posted all the Foundation documents. Articles of Incorporation don't get updated very frequently or possibly at all. I've never personally heard of an org updating them.
Back in 2009, when the articles of incorporation were written, the Team thought the foundation would own the code, but didn't understand that to own the code you have to have the copyright owner sign it over. So instead the code is owned by hundreds if not thousands of individuals and the Foundation does very little in relation to the code. Instead, Team Kodi makes all practical decisions with regards to things like who gets write access on Github. The Foundation manages trademarks at the behest of the team.
The word "clearly" is a word used by a person who is bullshitting and doesn't know whether something is true or not. There is, as far as I know, no other reason to use the word.
The bylaws don't have a 1a. You are speaking of the Articles of Incorporation.
The Foundation is fine and does not stink, because its only purpose is to pay for the furthering of Team Kodi's nonprofit goals and to manage IP like trademarks, and it performs those functions perfectly correctly.
Finally everything in that last post... man, we take things pretty literally here. That post sounded weird and faintly stalker-ish. I would genuinely be uncomfortable meeting the person who wrote that in real life. Perhaps in the future you could write in a way where you aren't talking about your clones and killing yourself.
2016-01-09, 14:55
Ned, please read my blog. You have been doing me unjust and that's why I call you that. I have been called many times names on the forum, often done by shady persons with shady interests. I understand you are in over your head so I try explain a little more. I made extensive research about 5-6 years ago. Most of them published in my blog. Your impact wasn't even step 1 in my 2011 blogpost Community Management post.
But have fun with the trademark and t-shirts while developpers are screaming and community is burning. My message is straight and clear.
I felt it was best to have ownership, oversight and operations split for better governance. So let’s devise a process of governance that is open, fair, trustworthy and participatory. And yes, Kodi Foundation stinks; not just bad design but also ignorance. That's the only way to connect the developers to the community and leave the bullshit. This is not a new exercise.
That's my final (not last) contribution to Kodi community. Now PR that, Martijn. I also don't like being called names by you. Your role as gatekeeper is finished. You lost respect within this loving community of devs and (API)users. I think you're better of becoming a Trademarkt bully at Davila's fork.
I volunteer for all future bookkeeping to get this started. Can't wait to start a more serious conversation about this with the right people with the right mindset.
But have fun with the trademark and t-shirts while developpers are screaming and community is burning. My message is straight and clear.
I felt it was best to have ownership, oversight and operations split for better governance. So let’s devise a process of governance that is open, fair, trustworthy and participatory. And yes, Kodi Foundation stinks; not just bad design but also ignorance. That's the only way to connect the developers to the community and leave the bullshit. This is not a new exercise.
That's my final (not last) contribution to Kodi community. Now PR that, Martijn. I also don't like being called names by you. Your role as gatekeeper is finished. You lost respect within this loving community of devs and (API)users. I think you're better of becoming a Trademarkt bully at Davila's fork.
I volunteer for all future bookkeeping to get this started. Can't wait to start a more serious conversation about this with the right people with the right mindset.
2016-01-09, 15:08
I honestly can't tell if this guy is just a poorly worded troll, or a bot that just shits itself while coming up with responses.
2016-01-09, 15:11
@Nate posting that here may not be the place were most would look for it
Since I'm here since 2009 some things are more visible than others (Typically your forum subtitle is in contradiction with your statements from what is visible outside the private forums / github)
Anyway I'll repeat myself here again one more time, because I'm deeply persuaded it have high impacts
- XBMC Foundation, do not like to take decision and do not drive Kodi
- Kodi decision are taken at 100% votes, meaning 1 vote can take down ideas (This is what can be read from your post and have been seen a few times on github)
The addition of those 2 facts means that it's nearly impossible to drive the project do a defined target without hitting some ego or other kind of problems and leads to what happens recently and many times before.
The project is too big and users have now too much expectations from it, to not have a decision / validation process that can work outside of ego or personal problems.
Validation process and clear target would also opens a new world for external devs to know where they put their feet into.
When I see Phate89 asking on a random github PR if a PR for renaming things would be accepted, and having Razzee say I'll push for it means no sense, since when the PR rise anyone can stop it
A simple proper organisation would opens so many things to this project.
Since I'm here since 2009 some things are more visible than others (Typically your forum subtitle is in contradiction with your statements from what is visible outside the private forums / github)
Anyway I'll repeat myself here again one more time, because I'm deeply persuaded it have high impacts
- XBMC Foundation, do not like to take decision and do not drive Kodi
- Kodi decision are taken at 100% votes, meaning 1 vote can take down ideas (This is what can be read from your post and have been seen a few times on github)
The addition of those 2 facts means that it's nearly impossible to drive the project do a defined target without hitting some ego or other kind of problems and leads to what happens recently and many times before.
The project is too big and users have now too much expectations from it, to not have a decision / validation process that can work outside of ego or personal problems.
Validation process and clear target would also opens a new world for external devs to know where they put their feet into.
When I see Phate89 asking on a random github PR if a PR for renaming things would be accepted, and having Razzee say I'll push for it means no sense, since when the PR rise anyone can stop it
A simple proper organisation would opens so many things to this project.
2016-01-09, 15:43
Nate, you post is so wrong. You should call SFLC straight away. Foundation goal to make money?
Here is my goal:
Empower, support and educate a global volunteer community with an open development model, knowledge-sharing tools and discussion-tools so FOSS Media Centre Software will be freely available for the public and fully complies with The Free Software Definition and /or The Open Source Definition. Not to forget to support open standards, platform neutral an other technical stuff.
Now that would answer some of the questions I raised. Now your turn again Ned there is still some work left. See OP.
@Tolriq: When you where developing Yatse, I was writing https://bulkzooi.wordpress.com. I think there is a lot of stuff you'll like overthere. Or at least you should. API fight is the same fight is mine fight.
I wish I could tell all this more gracefully but it's a lot more than just some API-policies.
Here is my goal:
Empower, support and educate a global volunteer community with an open development model, knowledge-sharing tools and discussion-tools so FOSS Media Centre Software will be freely available for the public and fully complies with The Free Software Definition and /or The Open Source Definition. Not to forget to support open standards, platform neutral an other technical stuff.
Now that would answer some of the questions I raised. Now your turn again Ned there is still some work left. See OP.
@Tolriq: When you where developing Yatse, I was writing https://bulkzooi.wordpress.com. I think there is a lot of stuff you'll like overthere. Or at least you should. API fight is the same fight is mine fight.
I wish I could tell all this more gracefully but it's a lot more than just some API-policies.
2016-01-09, 15:58
(2016-01-09, 15:43)Robotica Wrote: Here is my goal:
Empower, support and educate a global volunteer community with an open development model, knowledge-sharing tools and discussion-tools so FOSS Media Centre Software will be freely available for the public and fully complies with The Free Software Definition and /or The Open Source Definition. Not to forget to support open standards, platform neutral an other technical stuff.
Meh...
We are just people developing a free media center software for fun, here.
If you're looking for FOSS activists, there are better places to be...
2016-01-09, 16:08
Me to but that's not the point. I don't worry over Kodi in Github. I love that stuff, I prefer you call me XBMC activist of evangalist ;-)
or did the Foundation Trademark cover that also? Then I might reconsider... Untill then, hobby governance need to go. Make way for something better. Like Fernetmenta videoplayer or Garbear retroplayer, or Memphiz new platform. Consider I have never done harm to the software ;-)
It's time for a decent Foundation.
or did the Foundation Trademark cover that also? Then I might reconsider... Untill then, hobby governance need to go. Make way for something better. Like Fernetmenta videoplayer or Garbear retroplayer, or Memphiz new platform. Consider I have never done harm to the software ;-)
It's time for a decent Foundation.
2016-01-09, 16:18
(2016-01-09, 16:08)Robotica Wrote: No, that's not the point. I don't worry over Kodi in Github. I love that stuff, I prefer you call me XBMC activist of evangalist ;-)
(or did the Foundation Trademark cover that also. Then I might reconsider... Untill then, hobby governance need to go.
Why are you making a difference between 'Kodi in Github" (I assume you mean devs) and the foundation?
The foundation is a tool to make devs life easier, that's all. It's a legal receptacle for donations and trademark.
You seem to assume a "Grand Goal" or whatever. Most of us just don't. We have fun, punt.
2016-01-09, 16:21
If you wan't to qoute me, use this one:
Grand Goal? You confuse me with a FSF activist again? I challenge you to let guys like SFLC, FSF, FSFE, David Boillier, Michel_Bauwens or other in the industry of Open Source Governance to bring my views down.
Why is governance so difficult to comprehend to you devs? Check Mozilla, check the apache project, check my blog. And yes, I make a distanct difference between copyright and ownership in Github and the Foundation with a lousy mission on the other hand and lots of shady dealing on the other end, although the lines seem blurry.
Otherwise, ditch the Foundation and survive on Github. No problem for me, but community would be rather dissapointed.
For me, since 2009, noting much has changed. Only the copyright is more clear; I bed it is changed along the way. But for me that was an important issue what needed to be clear. In the meanwhile, Kodi as a project did progress. Only community clearly doesn't like it. And that's not just an attitude problem towards community.
no hablo C++ but I understand software. I understand Kodi's origins and growth. I know I should respect Jmarshalland Spiff for their longtime involvement. Some of the others are out of the picture Elupus thnx Fernmenta, topfs2 thnx to Montelesse, Gnif thnx to Fritsch. Now with Davilla silent, and almost Martijn and Nate, I consider the development side under control, thnx to all involved.
Where am I wrong Fernetmenta or Montelesse or whoever feels called (and is capable or resfreshing)? Nate and Martijn, 2 remaining Foundation members don't have any respect.
So are the devs interested in reconnecting with community? Must sounds appealing to have the possibility for complete new dynamics in those crisis time.
Quote:Empower, support and educate a global volunteer community with an open development model, knowledge-sharing tools and discussion-tools so FOSS Media Centre Software will be freely available for the public and fully complies with The Free Software Definition and /or The Open Source Definition.
Grand Goal? You confuse me with a FSF activist again? I challenge you to let guys like SFLC, FSF, FSFE, David Boillier, Michel_Bauwens or other in the industry of Open Source Governance to bring my views down.
Why is governance so difficult to comprehend to you devs? Check Mozilla, check the apache project, check my blog. And yes, I make a distanct difference between copyright and ownership in Github and the Foundation with a lousy mission on the other hand and lots of shady dealing on the other end, although the lines seem blurry.
Otherwise, ditch the Foundation and survive on Github. No problem for me, but community would be rather dissapointed.
For me, since 2009, noting much has changed. Only the copyright is more clear; I bed it is changed along the way. But for me that was an important issue what needed to be clear. In the meanwhile, Kodi as a project did progress. Only community clearly doesn't like it. And that's not just an attitude problem towards community.
no hablo C++ but I understand software. I understand Kodi's origins and growth. I know I should respect Jmarshalland Spiff for their longtime involvement. Some of the others are out of the picture Elupus thnx Fernmenta, topfs2 thnx to Montelesse, Gnif thnx to Fritsch. Now with Davilla silent, and almost Martijn and Nate, I consider the development side under control, thnx to all involved.
Where am I wrong Fernetmenta or Montelesse or whoever feels called (and is capable or resfreshing)? Nate and Martijn, 2 remaining Foundation members don't have any respect.
So are the devs interested in reconnecting with community? Must sounds appealing to have the possibility for complete new dynamics in those crisis time.
