2016-01-09, 16:28
2016-01-09, 16:29
(2016-01-09, 16:21)Robotica Wrote: Why is governace so difficult to comprehend?
Governance towards what? That's the point.
Your "Empower, support, blablabla" might be your motto, it's just not ours as a Team.
(2016-01-09, 16:21)Robotica Wrote: Otherwise, ditch the Foundation and survive on Github. No problem for me, but community would be rather dissapointed.
Why? Who will manage the donations/trademark?
2016-01-09, 16:40
(2016-01-09, 15:11)Tolriq Wrote: .. since when the PR rise anyone can stop it
Yep, this can be a problem sometimes. We've internally discussed this many times. Personally I think there has been much less bike-shedding than in previous times.
(2016-01-09, 15:11)Tolriq Wrote: A simple proper organisation would opens so many things to this project.
What does that mean. That there's a few persons taking all decisions? Does the Foundation need to do this? Saying that there's a lack of vision is not entirely untrue, but this comes from the fact that none of the team members make money working for Kodi. So a certain lack of hierarchy is expected in this regard. It must stay fun and not like work where you have to do what someone tells you.
Ofc this changes when there's money to be made
2016-01-09, 17:00
@BigNoid, well not organisation in the matter of giving orders so that someone should do this or that.
But an organisation where there's a more or less target defined, and a perhaps only majority votes to define the path. Then people can still have fun coding the part they love and want, but to reach a common target and not multiple personal ones.
I know for sure that for the moment I can't take the risk to make PR because I fear the result after so many years of trying to argument (And some strange people but that's another story).
The thing that is clearly missing is at least for external devs :
A way to ask if they can work on X or Y feature and discuss on how to achieve that and (the important part) a way to get a GO / NO GO on that.
Then if GO it's not a do it with shitty code it will be merged, it's do it, accept feedback and improve code and it will be merged (this means some people needs to improve their speaking level on Github but let's ignore that).
But if it's a GO it need to have a public valid stamp to prove that it's a valid request and work, and that if someone jump and say no just because he missed the thread and the stamp it won't be trashed and leave a user with hours / days / weeks of work loss with little respect.
But an organisation where there's a more or less target defined, and a perhaps only majority votes to define the path. Then people can still have fun coding the part they love and want, but to reach a common target and not multiple personal ones.
I know for sure that for the moment I can't take the risk to make PR because I fear the result after so many years of trying to argument
(And some strange people but that's another story).The thing that is clearly missing is at least for external devs :
A way to ask if they can work on X or Y feature and discuss on how to achieve that and (the important part) a way to get a GO / NO GO on that.
Then if GO it's not a do it with shitty code it will be merged, it's do it, accept feedback and improve code and it will be merged (this means some people needs to improve their speaking level on Github but let's ignore that).
But if it's a GO it need to have a public valid stamp to prove that it's a valid request and work, and that if someone jump and say no just because he missed the thread and the stamp it won't be trashed and leave a user with hours / days / weeks of work loss with little respect.
2016-01-09, 17:07
there are no 2nd class citizens in this community. All users are important, as per GPL v2. Besides, it's a 501©3 status. I labeled this phenomenon GPL Paradox. The fun thing is, the devs may choose! But I wait official announcements; for me more exciting than Jarvis.
2016-01-09, 17:11
(2016-01-09, 17:00)Tolriq Wrote: But an organisation where there's a more or less target defined, and a perhaps only majority votes to define the path. Then people can still have fun coding the part they love and want, but to reach a common target and not multiple personal ones.
Question is: What leverage would you have on the minority to apply the decision of the majority? The Fun is not about "coding", it's about implementing features you have fun with.
A project like ours is not a democracy, it's basically an anarchy, so no majority/minority but consensus
2016-01-09, 17:15
(2016-01-09, 17:07)Robotica Wrote: there are no 2nd class citizens in this community. All users are important, as per GPL v2. Besides, it's a 501©3 status. I labeled this phenomenon GPL Paradox. The fun thing is, the devs may choose!
Heh? What are you talking about now?
You definitely sound like someone under influence...
2016-01-09, 17:24
I love the anarchy style! Keeps room for free spirits. Or do you want to ban users like soulbind or me? Substantial commitment and dedication to this community over time made my voice stronger over time.
Like I said, I suggest to read that community blogpost I linked. So you don't have to be afraid your business emporium is falling; I am just trying to save it for the community before it goes down on shady practices. It's the only way to separate wrong and right. But ofc, the devs have their copyright and you can make a fool out of yourself with utterly disrespect to the community at large. So Koying, your opinion in this isn't that valuable. You have other strenghts. I prefer Fernetmenta's or Fritsch views in this.
Now, have a great weekend all! Hope XBMC is soon fixed again and everybody spreads the love and piece again. I plan on maybe updating my blog. Otherwise, I offer help to fix this community, as steward of the software. Where can I PR my suggestions? I am master in Business Administration, with experience in some tech and consultancy companies.
Yes, I did my due-dilligence. Note that blog is a little outdated but most still apply. Ned can fill in the remaining details as he was President that time. Look man, I am not saying kordkutters, blogposts and the stuff Martijn is doing aren't important.
Please re-read this topic, do your homework and I'll disregard earlier defamation, slander or any other bullshit. Managing Github and all of the Foundation already is hard work; I just fill in the gaps.
Like I said, I suggest to read that community blogpost I linked. So you don't have to be afraid your business emporium is falling; I am just trying to save it for the community before it goes down on shady practices. It's the only way to separate wrong and right. But ofc, the devs have their copyright and you can make a fool out of yourself with utterly disrespect to the community at large. So Koying, your opinion in this isn't that valuable. You have other strenghts. I prefer Fernetmenta's or Fritsch views in this.
Now, have a great weekend all! Hope XBMC is soon fixed again and everybody spreads the love and piece again. I plan on maybe updating my blog. Otherwise, I offer help to fix this community, as steward of the software. Where can I PR my suggestions? I am master in Business Administration, with experience in some tech and consultancy companies.
Yes, I did my due-dilligence. Note that blog is a little outdated but most still apply. Ned can fill in the remaining details as he was President that time. Look man, I am not saying kordkutters, blogposts and the stuff Martijn is doing aren't important.
Please re-read this topic, do your homework and I'll disregard earlier defamation, slander or any other bullshit. Managing Github and all of the Foundation already is hard work; I just fill in the gaps.
2016-01-09, 18:06
I have been reading a lot last time here and have also seen this https://www.reddit.com/r/kodi/comments/3...rs_of_the/
Martijn I think you are a good developer, but not a good social person. Step back and just code and never reply on any posts please.
Martijn I think you are a good developer, but not a good social person. Step back and just code and never reply on any posts please.
2016-01-09, 18:13
Codyingwize he is not that important although he has been a steady factor for the project, also bits on Github yet still no roadmap or vision. That's needed to engage community. It's not about being gatekeeping anymore...
This Foundation is not a big success and needs some cleaning. And it's doable but this time I try to prevent future problems,
Community question:
What am I? FSF Advocate? Afraid of binairy addons? Troll? Chinese box-seller? Please make up your mind.
Answer:
No, I am just a guy like you. Loving the software like Ned and dedicated like many others.
This Foundation is not a big success and needs some cleaning. And it's doable but this time I try to prevent future problems,
Community question:
What am I? FSF Advocate? Afraid of binairy addons? Troll? Chinese box-seller? Please make up your mind.
Answer:
No, I am just a guy like you. Loving the software like Ned and dedicated like many others.
2016-01-09, 18:31
(2016-01-09, 17:00)Tolriq Wrote: The thing that is clearly missing is at least for external devs :
A way to ask if they can work on X or Y feature and discuss on how to achieve that and (the important part) a way to get a GO / NO GO on that.
Then if GO it's not a do it with shitty code it will be merged, it's do it, accept feedback and improve code and it will be merged (this means some people needs to improve their speaking level on Github but let's ignore that).
But if it's a GO it need to have a public valid stamp to prove that it's a valid request and work, and that if someone jump and say no just because he missed the thread and the stamp it won't be trashed and leave a user with hours / days / weeks of work loss with little respect.
That is a good point and we have recognized this at last DevCon (I think Razze already said this in the other thread). We've added #kodi-dev channel for this reason. Ofc suggestions on how to improve this point are welcome.
2016-01-09, 18:32
That's a tough discussion by itself and I'm trying to make a point ;-)
Please stay on topic or split that topic back to the Android topic. I believe the feature-problem feeds best over there.
But to give a hint: team structure, platform devs, blah blah blah. This topic is about creating solutions; not about github problems.
Please stay on topic or split that topic back to the Android topic. I believe the feature-problem feeds best over there.
But to give a hint: team structure, platform devs, blah blah blah. This topic is about creating solutions; not about github problems.
2016-01-09, 19:01
Could it be that you keep mixing up Ned vs. Nate at times? I think there was never a time where Ned was president...
2016-01-09, 19:03
aha.. Found another interesting, unpublished document named: "The Freesoftware movement in perspective". Thought I might as wel publish it but needs some factchecking. I didn't publish this for political reason, I only publsihed now to show why I called myself stewart of the software. I don't need your acknowledgement for that. You can't ban me from my message; I have no vested formal interest nor I make an income out of it in any way...
And having most stuff on that blog, shows my timing is like McGregor against Aldo. Then you'll understand I'm not fighting copyright or all your other brainleaks. I have a true cause. Like Fritsch expresses and many less dominant devs have.
@Memphiz: I'm pretty sure that happened but I'm not so bothered with that. Ping me when that needs cleaning (that's governance-language for rebasing) . I promise, to take care of it, within 5 years. No bullshit guarantee by bulkzooi is the best in town. Better than any former President but I don't have the technical skills to lead this project. However, before my troubles with former Members, I was committer, bugreporter and active forummember and only after my ban, I went in guerrilla mode working this case and waiting momentum. To be precize, I was pretty close by all major events around XBMC since right after birth. Not as committer but as contributer, also while using other usernames (which was pretty normal than), I challenge you to asses my reasoning.
So what do you like better: XBMC Evangelist or steward of the software? I hope to have Bulkzooi unbanned and re-estate in his full glory with opportunity for excuse for anyone who feels he should apologize for making wrong choices at my expense. Otherwize, no problem; it must be FOSS dynamics in the work.
My point: Individual copyright by arthists/devs does add to the software while XBMC Foundation while being operated with a 501©3 exemption doesn't thanks to GPL v2, totally Free Software. That's why community is useless...
So while you let this sink in, I go make myself a nice steak. And think back about the good days, where people were cooperative around her.
ps. Nate: Do you have all those early revisions of those Bylaws laying around? Maybe you still can do some goods. This time it's not a technical discussion you don't understand; it's your duty to look after this Foundation.
And having most stuff on that blog, shows my timing is like McGregor against Aldo. Then you'll understand I'm not fighting copyright or all your other brainleaks. I have a true cause. Like Fritsch expresses and many less dominant devs have.
@Memphiz: I'm pretty sure that happened but I'm not so bothered with that. Ping me when that needs cleaning (that's governance-language for rebasing) . I promise, to take care of it, within 5 years. No bullshit guarantee by bulkzooi is the best in town. Better than any former President but I don't have the technical skills to lead this project. However, before my troubles with former Members, I was committer, bugreporter and active forummember and only after my ban, I went in guerrilla mode working this case and waiting momentum. To be precize, I was pretty close by all major events around XBMC since right after birth. Not as committer but as contributer, also while using other usernames (which was pretty normal than), I challenge you to asses my reasoning.
So what do you like better: XBMC Evangelist or steward of the software? I hope to have Bulkzooi unbanned and re-estate in his full glory with opportunity for excuse for anyone who feels he should apologize for making wrong choices at my expense. Otherwize, no problem; it must be FOSS dynamics in the work.
My point: Individual copyright by arthists/devs does add to the software while XBMC Foundation while being operated with a 501©3 exemption doesn't thanks to GPL v2, totally Free Software. That's why community is useless...
So while you let this sink in, I go make myself a nice steak. And think back about the good days, where people were cooperative around her.
ps. Nate: Do you have all those early revisions of those Bylaws laying around? Maybe you still can do some goods. This time it's not a technical discussion you don't understand; it's your duty to look after this Foundation.
2016-01-09, 20:05
(2016-01-09, 18:31)BigNoid Wrote:(2016-01-09, 17:00)Tolriq Wrote: The thing that is clearly missing is at least for external devs :
A way to ask if they can work on X or Y feature and discuss on how to achieve that and (the important part) a way to get a GO / NO GO on that.
Then if GO it's not a do it with shitty code it will be merged, it's do it, accept feedback and improve code and it will be merged (this means some people needs to improve their speaking level on Github but let's ignore that).
But if it's a GO it need to have a public valid stamp to prove that it's a valid request and work, and that if someone jump and say no just because he missed the thread and the stamp it won't be trashed and leave a user with hours / days / weeks of work loss with little respect.
That is a good point and we have recognized this at last DevCon (I think Razze already said this in the other thread). We've added #kodi-dev channel for this reason. Ofc suggestions on how to improve this point are welcome.
Well I did try to make propositions arount that over the years but only jmarshall did take time to answer. No one really cared
But now that I see multiple post from the Team asking for more devs I can't retain from trying again as it's a non sense to try to fix a problem without fixing the root problem.
I'd happilly help about that since I fight since years about that. But IMO from experience and reading Koying post this needs internal organisation change before.
On phone so hard to quote Koying, but anarchy / consensus can work on a limited agreeing groupe but then do not ask for new comers to adhers to that.
It's not fun to code things and have it refused for some obscur or dictatorial decision. Not talking about misa post that is edifiant about another recurring problem. Some problems should not be buried.
