[pitpawten]

In previous releases of XBMC win32 (builds prior to Atlantis) when playing back a DVD you could bring up the OSD by left clicking the mouse. You could then select one of the OSD options (such as DVD) by clicking on that option with the mouse. To remove the OSD (or osd sub-menu) you could right-click the mouse.

Atlantis builds new behavior is that OSD pops on mouse movement as opposed to mouse click. You then cannot select an OSD option by clicking on it with the mouse as that will automatically select play/pause (even when not hovering over the OSD.

This new behavior is counter-intuitive and a bit frustrating if you want to control XBMC via Keyboard and Mouse as opposed to Keyboard only.

A similar (yet different) issue was discussed here and fixed here, but surrounds when windowed XBMC takes focus inappropriately.

Can the old mouse behavior be brought back or is there some reason for the new behavior? Let me know if I should post a Trac with Logs.

Thanks.

[jmarshall]

We want it to be as intuitive as possible for users who are only using a mouse, and ofcourse for those who are only using a keyboard, and for those that are using both - this means compromise, but I think what we have now is better than what we had before.

There could be a problem with DVD menus perhaps? You can click on XBMC's OSD stuff no problem at all in current builds.

Perhaps you could clarify what it is you are having issues with (including which skin you are using). Screenshots may be helpful perhaps?

Cheers,
Jonathan

[pitpawten]

Jonathan, thanks for the quick reply. Heres some thoughts/clarification.

We want it to be as intuitive as possible for users who are only using a mouse, and of course for those who are only using a keyboard

1. Everything is cool if you are only using the keyboard (shortcuts).

2. I don't believe you can use only the mouse. How would you close (stop) a currently playing video (not just "minimize" it), or switch between full screen and windowed modes... There are tons of other functions like this that are not available via the mouse while playing a video. I think the two user groups (for win32) would have to be Mouse&Keyboard Operation and Keyboard Only Operation.

3. That being said, as a Mouse&Keyboard user, I found it far more intuitive and easy as a "click option" as opposed to what amounts to a Mouse Gesture to bring up the OSD.

Typically to select an item with the mouse (a menu or option) you have to click on it rather than just hovering. Indeed, in the rest of the GUI this is the behavior. When selecting options in any of the settings menus (videos, music, appearance...) you have to click the item you want to select it rather than hover.

I'd be interested in what the reasoning behind changing the OSD behavior from "on-click" to "on-movement" was.

There could be a problem with DVD menus perhaps? You can click on XBMC's OSD stuff no problem at all in current builds.

Although I am having problems clicking on DVDMenu items (the different menu choices for a given dvd [play,chapters,setup,extras...] are not highlighted but are "blindly selectable"), that wasn't what I was referring to here.

The OSD options (Video Settings, Audio and Subtitle Settings, Play, DVDMenu,FF, RW...) are not selectable. When you click on them (or anywhere on the screen for that matter) it just selects the play/pause button.

I am using Atlantis Alpha 4, but will re-install tonight and get some screenshots and logs to post with the details.

[jmarshall]

Thanks heaps for the clarification.

2. You can actually use the mouse for pretty much everything, though not for fullscreen <-> window toggling as far as the XBMC app goes (eventually this will be done the standard way in windows, just hitting maximize). Right click toggles between fullscreen video and UI mode. Left click on the small video to get back. The only thing missing I think is stop, which will be remedied by time of release in the default skin.

The reason we changed was that this is the expected behaviour when one moves the mouse in a media app - you get controls. Indeed, a journalist couldn't find the OSD at all using the mouse (hard to believe, but still, it indicates it's not necessarily obvious to have to click.)

In PM3 you can click on the OSD stuff no problem at all with the mouse, so it's either skin specific there, or there's something else going on that I can't replicate as yet (if it's a dvd you are playing, that may have an influence.)

I agree that dvd menus are a problem. Will have to discuss with the team as to how to handle this. It's certainly a problem with the current method of input.

And yes, we're thinking of at least making the mouse behaviour optional - i.e. to ignore mouse movement and use left click to bring up the osd. With the dvd menu problem we may in fact have to scrap the current method - not sure.

It's something that hasn't really been addressed in the past (no mouse on xbox ofcourse) and so we're somewhat playing catch-up for this release

Thanks again for your thoughts. They will certainly be taken into account!

Cheers,
Jonathan

[pitpawten]

Again, thanks for the quick reply.

Both the OSD Clickability issue and the DVD Menu highlighting issues i mentioned were resolved upon a clean re-install (complete uninstall first) of Atlantis Alpha 4. OSD items can now be clicked with the mouse appropriately, and (at least on several DVD's that didn't previously work) when changing DVD Menu items via the keyboard they are highlighting correctly now.

Looks like the previous install was wonky somehow...sorry for the lack of due diligence before posting

The reason we changed was that this is the expected behavior when one moves the mouse in a media app - you get controls

Keep in mind that this also breaks the ability to select a DVD menu item with the mouse. In previous builds you could hover over and select items in a DVD's menu with the mouse. Now any mouse movement brings up the OSD and any subsequent clicks (while the OSD is open) are directed to the ODS and therefore "stolen" from the DVD menu. This being something I could do before the Atlantis versions FWIW.

Also it is worth noting that even if your mouse is on the right side of the screen when it is moved (you are not hovering over any OSD items) when you click, the OSD (the defaultly selected button of Play/Pause) is still selected.

And yes, we're thinking of at least making the mouse behavior optional - i.e. to ignore mouse movement and use left click to bring up the osd.

I was going to ask if this would be something that I could regress and re-compile myself to get back the old functionality, but an option from within the Skin would be infinitely better

I agree that dvd menus are a problem. Will have to discuss with the team as to how to handle this. It's certainly a problem with the current method of input.

On a somewhat related note regarding playing back of DVD ISO images; does having the accompanying MDS file help in the emulation and playability (including menu function)?

Thanks for your constant work on XBMC, glad to be part of this community.

[jmarshall]

Ok, I've chatted with some of the team, and the current plan is:

1. Get Mouse support working for dvd menus. A trac report for this is here: http://trac.xbmc.org/ticket/4841

2. Restrict the mouse movement popup thing to a subregion of the skin (definable by the skinner, and probably defaulting to the lower portion of the screen).

3. Change left click on mouse to bring up the OSD if it isn't handled by the player (eg in dvd menus).

I welcome your (and others') thoughts on this.

Cheers,
Jonathan

[pitpawten]

Ok, I've chatted with some of the team, and the current plan is:
<snip>
I welcome your (and others') thoughts on this.

Sounds like a good plan, very similar to other media players (ex ZoomPlayer).

Hover over certain region brings up OSD, Clicking on video activates menu (if it exists) otherwise brings up OSD.

The only difference from other players is that right click usually brings up OSD items and Left Click does nothing when no Menu items are present, however Right Click is reserved in XBMC, so things sounds just right as you have laid them out.

Thanks for looking into the details and getting back, I'd be interested to see if other users concur on this. Looks good to me though

[InsomniaRSA]

Hi guys,

I hope this isn't closed for discussion. Just tossing in my 0.02 seeing as no-one else has. I have preference for mouse-only operation and I am in agreement with your logic and decision. However this needs to be carried through to music playing functionality too - currently one cannot bring up the OSD on mouse click without using the keyboard (m) while in music mode. Stopping a music track also requires the keyboard (x) as there is no stop function on the OSD (PM3).

At least to stop a movie one can go to the end (>|) - but this is not intuitive and the current movie position is lost, so one cannot resume from where they left off.

As this project moves more toward 'HTPC' I believe IMO that mouse functionality (without keyboard) needs to be borne in mind. I would just rather use my Bluetooth mouse than shell out for a remote as a controller - bonuses are distances of operation and non-necessity of line-of-sight. Keyboards shouldn't be a necessity but rather a 'nicety'. Anyway, that's my opinion - use it, don't use it...

Thanks for all you have put into this project - XBMC is the people's media centre!

[jmarshall]

PM3.HD has a stop button in both OSDs, and is now the default skin. So that solves that.

Mouse support has been added for DVD menus.

The click vs mouse move thing has yet to be done.

Cheers,
Jonathan

[MonkY]

jmarshall: i am in favour of mouse only operation use (i love my Logitech MX Air - perfect for XBMC) ! But is it somehow possible to use the mouse to move through the movie like you can do on XBOX with the analog sticks ? I mean, we can see the movie seek bar, but we can't click it. Therefore the mouse user is limited to only NEXT or STEP FORWARD buttons... which for a divx or anything else but a dvd is useless.

So, do you think the seek bar can be used with a mouse click ?
Thank you in advance !

[jmarshall]

Not in atlantis, but certainly it can be considered afterwards. Perhaps add a trac ticket.

Cheers,
Jonathan

[Gamester17]

http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=What_is_XBMC...to_XBMC.3F

[pitpawten]

PM3.HD has a stop button in both OSDs, and is now the default skin. So that solves that.

Mouse support has been added for DVD menus.

The click vs mouse move thing has yet to be done.

Jonathan, right on! Things are looking good in this new version, just as described above. The only couple of things I think left to implement then would be:

1. Restrict the ability of the mouse to pop the OSD on movement, to a given area of the screen (lower portion usually)
2. A setting to change how to pop the OSD (move or click)

I would assume both of those however would fall under the "feature request" category for the time being.

Again, thanks for the updates!

[MonkY]

Well, as jmarshall recommended i posted a ticket in here: http://trac.xbmc.org/ticket/5096 Hope it helps

[nodbek]

I used to be fairly unhappy with mouse only operation on Atlantis alphs but after moving to beta and using PM3.HD skin, I'm faily happy with mouse only operation. you might want to try it out.